All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

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All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  Go Anon on Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:58 am

It's obvious that all the 2.7 races are better than the original 1.6 races. Thinking in X3 here because that's all everyone plays. When balancing you could've compared your units to equivalent units in the 1.6 races. Instead you made them all overpowered and now no one picks anything other than Goblin/Arctic/Elf.

GOBLIN
Oh man what is wrong with this race? It has the BEST early tower (Fire Machine) and the BEST end tower (Goblin Steamroller) without accounting for aura synergy. Let's go over this:

FIRE MACHINE VS. ELEMENT VIOLET (closest comparable unit)
FM costs $230 and ONE food (due to bug)
Violet costs $230 and 2 food
(FM gets the edge)

FM does 10dmg/sec to ALL UNITS around it
Violet does 10dmg/sec to 3 units around it
(FM wins)

Fire Machine does CHAOS damage (best) AND has attack speed of 0.5
Violet does magic damage and has attack speed of 0.8 which means its extra damage isn't as good
(FM wins)

Fire Machine solos levels 1-3
Violet solos level 1
(FM wins)

Fire Machine has 970 HP (WTF)
Violet has 850 HP
(FM wins)

So Fire Machine wins in every aspect.

ARCHON VS. MECH ADMIRAL VS. DWARF ARCHMAGE
Archon costs $270 and 4 food
Admiral costs $300 and 2 food
Archmage costs $305 and 2 food
(this seems pretty even because the cheaper cost is offset by the food requirement)

Archon gives +10 damage and mini-heal (which lags the game). BUT the +10 damage most benefits the Fire Machine, increasing damage from 41 to 51. (25%)
Admiral gives +12% damage.
Archmage gives +17% damage to ranged.
(Archon wins)

So the Archon has ridiculous synergy with the Fire Machine, plus it's ranged so it doesn't die quick like the Admiral. Hmmm!

STEAMROLLER VS. MECH DOOMSDAY MACHINE (do I need to even do this one?)
Steamroller costs $805 and 7 food
Doomsday costs $810 and 5 food
(Virtual tie but the steamroller is cheaper)

Steamroller does 2 more damage than Doomsday
Steamroller has 15 more HP than Doomsday
Steamroller sends out 3x 100 damage goblin teams; Doomsday has NOTHING

Doomsday was supposed to be the best pure attack unit in the game, plus one of the best defensive units in the game because of the combination of siege damage and fortified armor (which creeps can't really beat until lv23). You just had to take that away from it, huh?

So there's 3 towers better than the 1.6 counterparts. Goblin has no weaknesses!

ELF
Nightsaber doesn't have a precise comparison, but it beats the Element Oceanus pretty easily. Oceanus costs $180 compared to the Nightsaber's $240, but you get +235 HP (810 HP is dumb for a ranged bounced unit), a 50 damage spell, and more range and improved damage. The 50 damage spell already weakens the enemies so much in the early game. You can literally just beat level 10 with 6 nightsabers. 8 Oceanus doesn't come close to beating level 10. Also, the Nightsaber has medium armor so it resists levels 7 and 8. How nice.

As for Maverick, LOL chaos damage. Chaos damage isn't something to add lightly. Hades has some of its damage being pierce because of summon Diablo. Defilers have a lowered attack speed and low HP, so they fall rather quickly late game. But Mavericks? You can mass'em forever.

ARCTIC
This race only has one broken unit. The dragons are fair because you can hit them on air, so it's not that. No, we're talking about the WANDIGOO.

WANDIGOO VS. GHOST SOUL OF HERO VS. DEMI SLAVEMASTER
(Mudman/Brawler does not factor in this because they have heavy armor)
Wandigoo costs $180 and 2 food
Soul of Hero costs $170 and 1 food
Slavemaster costs $160 and 1 food
(okay, so the Wandigoo is the most expensive. Therefore, we expect it to be the best, but HOW much better is it? It should only be a tick better for $10 and $20 more.)

Wandigoo has 180 range
Soul of Hero has melee range
Slavemaster has melee range
(180 range is very important. That means it'll get first strike, and usually a second strike before the enemy attacks! It is also more defensive because it'll lose less HP when charging forward)

Wandigo has 880 HP
Soul of Hero has 835 HP in defense mode
Slavemaster has 770 HP (ugh)
(Slavemasters get less HP so that massing them isn't a particularly good idea and you have to tech to minotaur. However, wandigoos have meaty HP along with the evasion, and so they're perfectly massable)

Wandigoo has 7% evasion
Soul of Hero has stance, most players will tell you to never change to attack mode because of the HP loss. So it has no ability for what it's worth.
Slavemaster has slave trade
(7% evasion is much better than the other two because the tower has more survivability.)

Wandigoo has 63 dmg at 0.8 speed
Soul of Hero has 67 dmg at 1.0 speed
Slavemaster has 65 dmg at 1.0 speed
(Wandigoo wins because of its attack speed, so it translates to roughly 20% better damage. Remember it only costs $10 and $20 more than the others!)

In fact the Wandigoo has more potential than the Fire Machine. You can clear level 10 with 6 wandigoo, 1 ice troll, and 1 ice troll expert. This allows Arctic to no-leak the boss with 15 peasants. If the arctic player gets a few leaks, then he can get 20+ peasants by level 13. Ridiculous.

SO... the conclusion is that the 2.7 races are imbalanced. Please nerf the units I brought up so that the old races are worth using again!

Also, make hybrid units cheaper (especially t3) because there are more duds now! $80 seems good for T3 when that's the median price of a T3 tower. T5 should be back to $195, T6 should be back to $300.

THANK YOU

Go Anon
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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:28 am

Thx for it. I don't know what egZe will do with this information, I will balance everything due to the fact I like it Smile . However, sometimes I can't when I don't know what to balance. Thx.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  AA on Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:14 pm

your post is basically a rant, not a balance discussion.

Its is EXACTLY an opinion about balance which I appreciate, bring ur own one I will consider it to my upcoming version 3.0
1) elves are 1.6 race, didn't you notice? no point bringing this as eGze's fault

Untruth
2) game is NOT designed for x3 exclusively, whatever you may think

But it is supposed to work well on x1 x2 and x3 as well, what me and egZe found possible to be done.
3) comparing tier2 upgrade with tier5 basic is ridiculous. no other word for it. units are supposed to grow in power with each tiers, and early units to lose efficiency later on

It's not ridiculous, the only criteria can be cost, not virtual number of Tier which the unit is. The only thing which should play on higher Tier is that u have to pay more at onc which mean u have to spare. Like 800g cost unit MUST be stronger than 200+200+400g costing one. Don't even try to deny this objective truth.
4) hybrid is imba as it is. absolute no need to lower price

Unfortunatelly neither of us (egZe nor me) think like that so u have a problem...
- in order to have X3 balance, one should redesign ALL races, with all tiers included (well, at least starting few), and have ALL units useful in some way (early tank, early dps, debuf, etc). when did you EVER use pewee in X3?

- the whole system of "ANYTHING-LESS-THEN-300g" is broken, since game is designed for 100g at start and 3x LOWER unit count:

1) this makes 13g "reward" for passing lvl1 ridiculous compared with 117g creep income, while this is not the case in original (where it's carefully chosen value (49g) makes certain units available, and others not)

2) 300g at start makes units such as LoD available in FIRST level

That's why I am uping cost of these units to 325 at example OR making same limit to 6 level as egZe did. Haven't considered yet.
3) 3 times more creeps makes most of debuff abilities 3 times less useful, while buffs retain it's usefulness

4) 3 times more creeps makes difficulty levels MORE difficult, and easy ones MORE easy, making every-noobs-dream come true - just save for lumber for lvlX, send all, gg

i could go on, but i won't. i posted this just because i hate people spilling nonsense and pretending to be learned, while just ranting, and giving no constructive ideas

Well, actually he pointed some good imbalanced units and made me focused on this topic.

AA
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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  Go Anon on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:57 am

You obviously haven't played pub games.

1) elves are 1.6 race, didn't you notice? no point bringing this as eGze's fault
2.7 elves were redesigned in subtle ways (such as Air Cutter not hitting bosses). Nightsaber actually costs $240 instead of $220. It's still too strong.

2) game is NOT designed for x3 exclusively, whatever you may think
99% of pub games on 2.7 are x3. If you want x1 then you join a 1.6 game.

3) comparing tier2 upgrade with tier5 basic is ridiculous. no other word for it. units are supposed to grow in power with each tiers, and early units to lose efficiency later on
Only price matters. Higher tier units costing more is just a symptom of that.

4) hybrid is imba as it is. absolute no need to lower price
Hahahaha how long have you played? Hybrid doesn't stand a chance especially when everyone is using -cb anyway to take away the only advantage hybrid has.

- in order to have X3 balance, one should redesign ALL races, with all tiers included (well, at least starting few), and have ALL units useful in some way (early tank, early dps, debuf, etc). when did you EVER use pewee in X3?
Peewees are more playable than cyborgs, actually, due to their armor typing. But yes, I don't personally use them.

2) 300g at start makes units such as LoD available in FIRST level
Can't use T6 until Lv6. Have you played this game?

i could go on, but i won't. i posted this just because i hate people spilling nonsense and pretending to be learned, while just ranting, and giving no constructive ideas
I have probably played more than twice as many games than you.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:15 am

Smile Keep talking dudes, bring more examples.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:48 pm

hmmm, "go anon" I agree with you on one thing:

Archon needs to be nerfed or changed (which proc mentioned in another post it will be). I say this more for its affect on hybrid or when building together coz its easy to abuse. I.e. spec spam and archon.

But the rest is biased. i.e. you compare units with poor stats to decent units and then the decent units are way overpowered. Fire machine might be imba the first few levels but late game its useless due to its tiny imollation dmg does almost nothing and its stats per gold are pathetic compared to units with good stats like outcast, grizzly, cyborg etc. If you want an imba unit, its things like spawn of dragon.

Wandigoo is an above average unit but again stats per gold not imba (and 7% evasion only really adds 7% to effective hp, which is small).

doomsday is a terrible unit stats wise per gold even factoring in the fortified armour. Steamroller is slightly better, probably quite a balanced ulti unit per gold.

Hybrid pricing has been changed and cb removed see changelog (please dont bring up irrelevant things that have already been considered and changed).

medium armour is awesome vs level 8 (which is a tough early level agreed) but gets raped later on by 14 and 15, so I wouldn't say medium armour is better then heavy armour. The right mix of armour is important as always.

If there is anything in your post I havent addressed or you question my logic let me know and I can detail it more.









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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  AA on Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:03 am

noobness runs deep in you, young skywalker!

i still won't enter flame war with ignorant people (or moderators who edit posts, thank you very much, please do it again). exactly the reason why i won't register here...

everything i said is true, sit down and ponder it a little

you chose probably 2 worst tier2 upgrades, and compared it with tier5 basic. moderator thinks it's ok, and price is only what matters. now both put thinking caps:
- tier2 is affordable unit at beginning, usually without abilities (remember, you start with 100g)
- tier2 UPGRADE gets improved stats, and usually ability (or improved version of previous one). still it's affordable before lvl10, because you pay for it in two parts - conveniently, you chose two with crappy abilities to make your point viable
- tier5 basic is not available at start, due to cost, and it cannot be bought (in one turn income, at least) before lvl10-12. THAT is why it is better from the start in raw stats.
- only by upgrading most of tier5 get their abilities (evasion doesn't count, it's like small hp increase in 'unarmored' hp)

whine all you like, but that's how game was initially designed, and nobody changed it - therefore, low tiers are unsuitable for x3, which renders player with only 60-70% of usable units.

now, go and compare slavemaster to harlot and whine how imba demi is compared to... demi?

for another interested party, i played 2 games, none of which was pub. it is as clear as day. i bow to you, wise master...

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  Go Anon on Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:05 am

>> guy4:
Fire machine might be imba the first few levels but late game its useless due to its tiny imollation dmg does almost nothing and its stats per gold are pathetic compared to units with good stats like outcast, grizzly, cyborg etc.

Outcast sucks, it has heavy armor. Cyborg sucks, it has heavy armor. Grizzly and troll are good later, but not early, which means beast overcompensates and loses income. Ever tried starting as beast and building them early? They have awful DPS in exchange for the aura. Fire machine does suck later but by then the damage has already been done: 100+ income by level 10, so you have enough to spam steamrollers later.

Wandigoo is an above average unit but again stats per gold not imba (and 7% evasion only really adds 7% to effective hp, which is small).
Wandigoo is imba because of increased attack rate, increased range, and the evasion. It's way above the curve. Want me to upload a replay where I mass nothing but wandigoo?

Steamroller is slightly better (than doomsday), probably quite a balanced ulti unit per gold.
No, steamroller is imba because of the 3x goblin teams.

Hybrid pricing has been changed
T3 is not $80. It's still too expensive.

medium armour is awesome vs level 8 (which is a tough early level agreed) but gets raped later on by 14 and 15
Medium armor allows faster incoming which means you can deal with lv14 better.

x3 starting race power:
Goblin (100+ income by lv10 is easy peazy with this)
Arctic (mass wandigoo)
Elf (mass nightsaber)
Dwarf (mass gyrocopter until 10 then switch out)
Nature (slow start but fastest to 26 peasants with ToK if boss is skipped)
Demihuman (only if you play the 3 engineer opening and get 5 peasants on level 3, otherwise it's near the bottom)
Marine (5 lobster to mass sea giant and mermaid)
Shadow (mass hades is good but income will be hurting)
Mech (overrated, best opening is 2 zeus/captain/admiral/3 neotank then switch)
Beast (seems good but your income is awful due to inefficiency before level 6)
Ghost (no synergy with other aura units, if cb is not on you can target lv13 as a kill level)
Hybrid (it's actually not the worst!)
Element (must sell peasants before level 7, overbuild for 9 and 10)

Oh look the 4 best starting races are all the new ones.

>>AA:
Read the second sentence of the first post in this thread. Read it again. Thank you. Also, you can't make your point without insulting people, so no one will take you seriously. Get beat up at school much so you have to take out your rage on the internet?

compare slavemaster to harlot and whine how imba demi is compared to... demi?
Slavemaster is actually better than harlot because the harlot has heavy armor. Every unit with heavy armor has to be significantly better than normal armor counterparts or else you get eaten alive on levels 8 and 13. Unfortunately, the harlot isn't that good.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  Go Anon on Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:04 am

MY LEVEL 7 CLEARS:

Goblin:
(standard) 4 fire machine, 1 modern mage in front to activate scanner damage - $1030
(anti-lag leak catcher) 3 fire machine, 1 steamroller - $1495

Elf:
5 nightsaber - $1200

Dwarf:
5 gyrocopter, 1 flying machine - $1180

Nature:
1 ToK, 5 archer (sold 4 tree of travel; loss of $65 each) - $1130

Demihuman:
(no slavemasters) 3 scientist, 2 alpha male, 2 minotaur - $1200
(slavemasters) 3 scientist, 5 slavemasters, 1 minotaur - $1285

Marine:
(5 lobster build) 4 sea giant (sold 4 king claw and 1 lobster; loss of $100) - $1220

Shadow:
(no gateguards) 3 skeletor, 2 nightcrawler, 1 overseer, 2 LoD - $1335

Mech:
(no cyborgs) 2 zeus, 1 captain, 1 admiral, 2 neotank - $1345

Beast: (this is probably not optimal but i refuse to use ogres and gnolls since they have zero value later)
(5 harpy opening) 5 medusa, 2 spawn dragon - $1505
(aura opening) 1 troll champion, 1 greymane, 3 harpy, 2 spawn dragon - $1375

Ghost:
(no outcast) 7 wanderer, 8 phantom - $1350

Element:
(no mudmen) 6 oceanus, 2 disciple - $1480

You have about $1600 to work with at this point so the remainder is peasants and farms. I can match them all around the $1300 range but then it all comes down to who can jump out in income before level 7. Goblin can not only clear with only $1030 (or even $920 if you risk it), but it can also use the altar to reduce the number of peasants after level 3.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  lvlupnow on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:51 pm

AA wrote:your post is basically a rant, not a balance discussion.

Its is EXACTLY an opinion about balance which I appreciate, bring ur own one I will consider it to my upcoming version 3.0
1) elves are 1.6 race, didn't you notice? no point bringing this as eGze's fault

Untruth
2) game is NOT designed for x3 exclusively, whatever you may think

But it is supposed to work well on x1 x2 and x3 as well, what me and egZe found possible to be done.
3) comparing tier2 upgrade with tier5 basic is ridiculous. no other word for it. units are supposed to grow in power with each tiers, and early units to lose efficiency later on

It's not ridiculous, the only criteria can be cost, not virtual number of Tier which the unit is. The only thing which should play on higher Tier is that u have to pay more at onc which mean u have to spare. Like 800g cost unit MUST be stronger than 200+200+400g costing one. Don't even try to deny this objective truth.
4) hybrid is imba as it is. absolute no need to lower price

Unfortunatelly neither of us (egZe nor me) think like that so u have a problem...
- in order to have X3 balance, one should redesign ALL races, with all tiers included (well, at least starting few), and have ALL units useful in some way (early tank, early dps, debuf, etc). when did you EVER use pewee in X3?

- the whole system of "ANYTHING-LESS-THEN-300g" is broken, since game is designed for 100g at start and 3x LOWER unit count:

1) this makes 13g "reward" for passing lvl1 ridiculous compared with 117g creep income, while this is not the case in original (where it's carefully chosen value (49g) makes certain units available, and others not)

2) 300g at start makes units such as LoD available in FIRST level

That's why I am uping cost of these units to 325 at example OR making same limit to 6 level as egZe did. Haven't considered yet.
3) 3 times more creeps makes most of debuff abilities 3 times less useful, while buffs retain it's usefulness

4) 3 times more creeps makes difficulty levels MORE difficult, and easy ones MORE easy, making every-noobs-dream come true - just save for lumber for lvlX, send all, gg

i could go on, but i won't. i posted this just because i hate people spilling nonsense and pretending to be learned, while just ranting, and giving no constructive ideas

Well, actually he pointed some good imbalanced units and made me focused on this topic.

you are a @#$%^&* moron!
editing this post, b/c the moderator wants more input.
1. you said it's not his fault, but he can balance the race. that's what we want, more balance. b/c the mavericks are imbal.

2. on garena, players only play x3 mode nowadays. there are so many noobs b/c of imbalanced units from the new races and x3 mode

3. in x3, you can get tier 5 unit at start, therefore there is a point to compare the units from tier 1-5

4. you said a unit that cost 800g must be better than a unit that is upgraded to 800g total. counter ex: fire machine. if you dont know how, then you are too noob for me to explain.
also, you said, hybrid is imba as it is. well there are about 12 races, means you get 1/12 you perfectly want, and a lot of chances that you get what you dont want. hybrid is not good b/c of random, b/c the units in the front won't be all tanks. the formation will get mess up. if you dont think so, then you are too noob for me to explain. in x1 mode, the formation is even more important.

i notice that your post restarted the number order. if you want ppl to take you seriously, at least keep the number order, or ppl would think you can count to 5.

5. i used pewee in x3 in the 1st wave. i upgrade it to veteran for good efficiency. i know it's not the best opening, but i think zeus becomes useless later on. i'd use fire machine than zeus.

6. in the latest version, tier 6 units are not available untill wave 6.

7. i agree with you on the debuff point. ex the negative armor from a unit in the ghost race

8. if i play safe and not just barely survive the wave, i can take on any wave with the race i want. b/c i will have good income to get extra towers to defend. also, it's a team game, my team mates will catch my leaks if i leak.







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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  AA on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:48 pm

>>AA:
Read the second sentence of the first post in this thread. Read it again. Thank you. Also, you can't make your point without insulting people, so no one will take you seriously. Get beat up at school much so you have to take out your rage on the internet?

i don't intend to. it's just stupid, like the rest of your rant

compare slavemaster to harlot and whine how imba demi is compared to... demi?
Slavemaster is actually better than harlot because the harlot...

'nuff said. clearly, you haven't begin to grasp game concepts (1.6b or 2.x alike). you expect harlot to be a tank??? it's a dps dealer, and always put somewhere where REAL tanks (minotaurs, and early slavemasters) will take the damage, while harlot deal actual dps. it deals alot, and longer it lives, the more useful it gets. its upgrade even more so. draw your own conclusions.

remember that for every level that specific armor or attack is 'especially weak' so you get 'slaughtered' are more where same is strong / tough. or write it down.

oh, it would be amusing showing me other low tier tanks who are "better" than late counterparts. please include your logic and reason for better experience! thank you!

you are a @#$%^&* moron!
editing this post, b/c the moderator wants more input.

kiss-ass

and for the moderator, he could leave my post intact, and quote parts which he need more input, instead editing it right away. i didn't see any OTHER post butchered like this

3. in x3, you can get tier 5 unit at start, therefore there is a point to compare the units from tier 1-5

4. you said a unit that cost 800g must be better than a unit that is upgraded to 800g total. counter ex: fire machine. if you dont know how, then you are too noob for me to explain.
also, you said, hybrid is imba as it is. well there are about 12 races, means you get 1/12 you perfectly want, and a lot of chances that you get what you dont want. hybrid is not good b/c of random, b/c the units in the front won't be all tanks. the formation will get mess up. if you dont think so, then you are too noob for me to explain. in x1 mode, the formation is even more important.

since i don't really want to go to your 'moron' quote, let's simplify (i'll count to 4, to your viewing pleasure):
1) there are various auras for different races, and not all of them fits the matching race perfectly. also, applies to debuffs
2) ghost have lots of debuffs, among which is an aura. as a weakness, ghost has limited normal dmg potential. combine this aura with strong dmg dealing race (beast, for instance) and what do you get?
3) 11/12 that you don't want??? back to 'moron' quote, but please count for me 11 tier1 or 3 (in 1.6) or 11 tier5 or 6 that you DON'T want? i can count up to eleven, but i can't find those
4) start, be weak, advance, buy better and more expensive staff, face stronger opponents, advance more, buy premium (and get premium). all the strategy games are like this. in warcraft, you have frost dragons (or at least abominations) available from the start, do you? in dota, you go and buy 10000g worth of equipment from the start?

i notice that your post restarted the number order. if you want ppl to take you seriously, at least keep the number order, or ppl would think you can count to 5.

actually, i can count up to eleven, having 10 fingers and a penis. since you never read ANYTHING that contain more than one numbering sequence, search it up on google - there are cases.

5. i used pewee in x3 in the 1st wave. i upgrade it to veteran for good efficiency. i know it's not the best opening, but i think zeus becomes useless later on. i'd use fire machine than zeus.

you are a @#$%^&* moron!
if i want to write 'veteran' i normally do. same applies to pewee. also by 'infantry' i don't mean either 'zeus' or 'pyro'. therefore, as i said, there only 60-70% of normal units that have any use in X3. fact.


6. in the latest version, tier 6 units are not available untill wave 6.

and it was always like this? right.


8. if i play safe and not just barely survive the wave, i can take on any wave with the race i want. b/c i will have good income to get extra towers to defend. also, it's a team game, my team mates will catch my leaks if i leak.

good players make good income without leaking. good players make strong mid-builds, that give them 20-30% more income, due to more workers AND safe play. 'gg' mode is made for noobs who can't stop leaking, and to compensate incoming, which needed to be redesigned. i'm glad that it is going to be nerfed, but complete removal would be AWESOME. noob DOOM. sadly, it won't happen, for now, at least Sad


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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  Go Anon on Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:44 am

But slavemaster is better than harlot on level 8. If you disagree, upload a replay where I see you defending with harlots on x3 with at least 7 peasants. You won't.

Slavemaster: 770 / .8 = ~962
Harlot: 835 / 1.2 = ~696

And yes only level 8 matters because that's the level where noobs die most, and it's the checkpoint level (if you don't have more than 40 income by level 8 you will be screwed for the remainder of the game). What happens to harlot on level 8? It runs up, gets one, maybe two shots up, and then dies. HP matters more than DPS on X3 mode; dwarf gets to spam gyrocopters until lv10 because it's 1900 HP (with medium armor!)for $220. So that's ~1583 HP for $220 against level 8. HP also matters for all air levels.

Fire Machine would be OK if it went down to 900 HP and got armor type change to light so that it's weak on lv4 (even more so), lv7, and lv8.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  Go Anon on Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:49 am

So that's ~1583 HP for $220 against level 8.

Mybad, this should be ~2375 HP.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:39 am

@Go Anon

You said "Outcast sucks, it has heavy armor. Cyborg sucks, it has heavy armor."

I just had to stop and LOL at this comment. You make some good comments (so not flaming you) but this was just funny.
Outcast and Cyborg have awesome stats near the best in the game and are very neccessary for lvl 14 and 15. To say the units SUCK because they have heavy armour and are weaker against lvl 8 and 13 shows your lack of knowledge of legion (in some areas, some of your knowledge is good).

Remember they do normal dmg and rape level 8 back. Even though they arent optimal on level 13 they are essential for ghost and mek to own level 14 and 15 with low value.

I wont comment on the rest as there are too many points and too much arguing over too many things in this thread. it would be nice if the different points in the thread were seperate topics and argued/discussed there.


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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:44 am

Sorry last thing Go Anon, I had to comment on (couldnt help myself Smile)

You said "MY LEVEL 7 CLEARS:"

Elf:
5 nightsaber - $1200

How do you get no units except nightsabers if you only allowed to build them after level 5? Do you sell all your units and then build nightsabers? Just curious, because not only would that be a great waste but not sure if you could afford 5 sabers after selling everything (with workers included)?

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  Go Anon on Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:35 am

You just embarrassed yourself.

And outcast sucks, and cyborg sucks. Any smart player will bum rush you on 16 if they see you massing those.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:54 am

lol, i dont ever use night saber so wouldnt know. Okay, so normally with aggorant guys like yourself, I normally just challenge them and beat them and burst their big ego's. But can't because you probably dont play on the SA server. So even though you call outkast and cyborg kak units shows you noob. let me prove more how noob you are.

You chose level 7 to try showoff how low value you can do to pass lvl 7. because level 8 kills your useless fire machine build and night sabers (the kak unit they are) are actually effective versus level 7. So here are lower values then yours

Oceanus -

3 mudmen, 4 oceanus, 3 aquas, 2 protons = 1300 , you build the protons on the edges to attract lots of the level 7 satyrs do focus their first shot on either of the protons overkilling it, whilst your units start damaging them before they regroup (advanced strategy which you obviously too noob to know go anon)

Demi human -

4 harlots and 3 scientists = 930 gold, could probably do it with 4 harlots and 2 scientists but not as safe.

Note: this is an old race go anon. As this beats all your values so stfu about new races being imba

Ill test more and beat more of your values because you are noob

nice idea with protons but the whole game in its current difficulty doesn't need it. It gonna change when I realease my insane one. guy4 plz, this man is just kind of envious of ur V.I.P. i dont know exactly what does he want to proove. Anyway, don't flame him, callin FM ultra imba way to beat everything is foolish and everybody knows that, so he only embarrasses himself. Of course I am glad of any discussion here and enlighting me with some kind of little bugs, imbalacements etc. Anyway Mech always gonna be expensive while Beast will be cheap, whether they say how Cyborgs suck or not.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:11 am

Beast -

3 grizly , 1 spawn, 1 harpies - 875

hmmm old race, but beats all your builds. imagine that.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  Go Anon on Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:58 am

because level 8 kills your useless fire machine build and night sabers
4 fire machine, 1 modern mage clears lv7. Add an assault tank for lv8 and you clear it.

3 mudmen, 4 oceanus, 3 aquas, 2 protons = 1300
Mudmen are terrible and won't assist you in clearing level 10, while disciple does. You have to build 2 disciple anyway for the messiah. 6 oceanus + 2 disciple leaves you in a better position for the later levels even though it's more expensive.

4 harlots and 3 engineers = 930 gold
So in order to get this, let me guess your build order:
Lv1: 1 harlot 1 engineer ($250, unsafe with dino send) or 1 harlot 1 engineer 2 scientists ($290, safe)
Lv2: 2 more engineers, 3 peasants during round (4)
Lv3: Build nothing, +7 lumber upgrade during round
Lv4: Build harlot
Lv5: Build harlot, peasant and farm during round (5)
Lv6: Build harlot, peasant during round (6)
Lv7: Build nothing (bank for minotaur)
Lv8: Build minotaur

This build loses to lv7 furbolg+commander. Plus, is this really supposed to beat level 8 cleanly? I don't think so. Plus, it's slower than the 3 engineer start:

Lv1: 2 engineer 1 scientist 1 servant ($200), build 2 peasants (3), peasant during round (4)
Lv2: Upgrade scientist to engineer, peasant and +7 lumber upgrade during round (5)
Lv3: Upgrade servant to slavemaster (yes you will get this due to your high income)
Lv4: Build alpha male
Lv5: Bulid alpha male
Lv6: Build altar, sell down to 4 peasants if necessary, build minotaur
Lv7: Build minotaur
Lv8: Build nothing, use all available money for peasants

It costs more, but it has the benefit of covering teammates (safe against furbolg+commander), plus you get higher income.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:42 pm

@ Go anon
4 fire machine, 1 modern mage clears lv7. Add an assault tank for lv8 and you clear it.

Fire machine rapes level 1 to 3, so Its worth getting one of them, but then Brawler is much more effective (even with heavy armour - just my opinion though, which I based on stats and its ability). 5 Brawlers and fire machine clears level 8 safely and is cheaper (but any build is fine). Apologies for being a bit harsh on you, but just hate it when guys complain about the new races, because they are really fun and nice races and EGZE has spent alot of time over many versions balancing them so that they are fair.

3 mudmen, 4 oceanus, 3 aquas, 2 protons = 1300

Mudmen have good stats and (just my opinion) but I have calculated balancing tankage with dps amkes for having the lowest values per round. I lean on getting more dps with just enough tankage as I believe the key to 3* waves, is to rape the waves fast and hard. Because once the wave surrounds your units they kill off your army pretty quickly, so I try do as much damage as possible before they start surrounding my army (and diverting the waves with strategies like my proton strategy helps dpsers even more). I try not to waste my money on disciples (as they have crap stats - but just my opinion). Protons with careful placement make 10 not too expensive. The bosses waste their attack potential on protons and when the bosses change targets they take time (whereas when they hitting targets they hit fast).

PS this build holds for 7 and 8 safely (cant remeber if it holds 9 but probably does too), so is expensive for level 7 but then holds nicely for a few rounds after

4 harlots and 3 engineers = 930 gold

The thing is my build is cheap for 7 and its just an example (was just trying to show you old races rape as well Smile). You can use any variation of harlots/scientists, slave masters, minotaurs. I like Harlots and scientists combo because scientists rape ground and harlots rape air (which scientist are weak against). Harlots also have nice dps per gold. For a safe 8 you can replace 1 or 2 harlots with minotaurs and still take it quite cheap.

PS: I think the best thing is to post builds, because some races are weaker on a certain level and stronger on others, so it doesnt realy help to say the races hold 7 with XXXX, its better to do a guide for minimum towers needed for each level and what summons it takes. But nice work on putting a few thought together on builds (just keep away from calling units kak if possible unless they really are kak)







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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:49 pm

@ go anon

Dwarf:
5 gyrocopter, 1 flying machine - $1180

You just gotta be careful here. You right by saying they have insane HP per gold, but their DPS per gold is awful. My experience with gyrocopters is to not over build them too much and heres why. They rape early, this is true but i found (just my opinion) if your army becomes unbalanced with huge tankage and minmal DPS it fails because you take foreva to kill the wave, which means your units cant get back and defend by king in time and the aura summons against you last much longer giving the wave a huge advantage especially in high dps waves like level 17 or level 14 or especially level 20. Level 20 really owns a full gyrocopter build. Now the other bad thing bout copters is that they are range. So other less tanky units tend to run in first and get owned whilst the low dps gyro survives and tikles the difficult waves.

just my opinion for what its worth

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:02 pm

@ anon last thing I think I should mention. In your build you have alpha males over harlots. A common debate really (again this is just my opinion). alpha males vs harlots. I always prefer harlots except if you building mid with someone and they have archon (then attack spd of alpha male boost its attck percentage by a lot with the 10 extra dmg becuase of the attack spped). Harlots outperforms alpha male in dmg and hp per gold (even though it has less range). But the biggest advantage is the net. The net ability fails at the moment for alpha male. It has a high attspd, but wastes a lot of attack potential by casting net. Normally the net is useless too. So in everyway besides range the harlot beats the alpha male but as I said in the beginning this is just my opinion based on stats and my dislike of the net ability.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  Go Anon on Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:11 am

Harlots outperforms alpha male in dmg and hp per gold

Alpha Male's net actually increases DPS on air levels because it brings them in. Also, the regular DPS is about the same due to its range. Alpha Male will get 2 shots in before the Harlot attacks. Also, Alpha Male has more effective HP/$ because of medium armor.

Now, having 1 Mistress by level 7 makes things interesting because the evasion pretty much cancels out the type weakness. Perhaps it's good to have 1 Mistress in the army, although I prefer to be safe with multiple Alpha Males. (Warlock/Kraken send messes up the Mistress plan)

-

So let's go over the rebuttals I've seen to my original post:

- Higher tier units are supposed to be more efficient
Well, may I remind everyone that Fire Machine starts from a T2 unit (Thief) and Nightsaber starts from a T3 unit (Wind Archer), yeah? Using this argument, Violet (starts from T3) should be better than Fire Machine, but instead it's less effective than Oceanus.

- Some units are "good" early but "bad" later
The efficiency of the first 10 levels is the most important part of Legion TD. If you are under 60 income by the time level 10 starts, you are in a bad situation and don't have much hope of winning. Saving lumber is also impossible if income is low. Fire Machine and Nightsaber don't care if they're bad on level 14: by that level you can sell off excess peasants via altar and overbuild without any loss. I can immediately tell a good player from a noob through his peasant management. The top four races (Goblin, Elf, Dwarf, Arctic) can all have at least 80 income by level 10 without any leaks. Nature and Ghost can get >80 income only if they skip the boss, and the rest of the races can't reliably do it.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:33 pm

Harlots outperforms alpha male in dmg and hp per gold

I agree the net helps in air levels (but air is only every 8 levels (5,13,21,29) effectively on 4 levels out of the 31 levels). The cast time on nets actually doesnt allow alpha male to get in 2 hits before harlot attacks (and if the alpha male and round lasts long enough for 2 or 3 nets there is a lot of dps potential lost) but I do agree range attack is more efficient then melee attack and medium armour is slightly better then heavy armour but those 2 small benefits dont make up for the large loss of stats per gold to the harlot or that on later levels you can have 1 mistresses (or 2 mistresses if places correctly) which help a lot. Overall harlots are superior to alpha males even though alpha males do have a few advantages over harlots.

Higher tier units are supposed to be more efficient

I agree with the fact that high tier units are supposed to be more efficient then low tier units but there are exceptions (like you listed the below average violet). The weaker higher tier units will be weaker then the stronger lower level tiers but the game was designed for higher tier units to be more efficient then lower tier units. An example is that people generally spam higher level units at the later levels instead of spamming lower level units. I do agree though thatin the first couple of levels lower tier units can be more efficient as the higher tier units waste a lot of dmg potential by "overkilling" the creeps.

Some units are "good" early but "bad" later

I agree that the first 10 levels are very important but getting 60 income with "weaker" units and needing to sell them isnt efficient. I only build weaker units if I fell itll give me an advantage. Like building 1 fire machine first up for 3 * waves is good but I never get more than 1 fire machine (brawlers are much more effcient). From my replies, you can see that the top 4 income races aren't the new races. Races like demi-human,beast can income hard before 10.

I understand that you wont agree on my above logic because you are stubborn like me Smile.So maybe lets agree to disgree?

It's kind of discussion I like, gj guyZZ

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7% evasion

Post  Helpless on Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:55 am

7% evasion isnt 7% increased hp. Not at all! You can get 0 evasion one wave and well not 100% evasion since wc3 uses pseudochance(dont know if it resets between waves, then you might get lucky)
But MOST OF ALL, if you got a char with(dunno what wendingo has) say 100 hp. Ill take evasion any day instead of same size hp. Any dmg above 100(-armor incl) onehits them. Even if something does 40 dmg, you then survive for one more hit 7% of the time instead of wasting those 7 hp.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

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