All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:28 am

Thx for it. I don't know what egZe will do with this information, I will balance everything due to the fact I like it Smile . However, sometimes I can't when I don't know what to balance. Thx.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:15 am

Smile Keep talking dudes, bring more examples.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:48 pm

hmmm, "go anon" I agree with you on one thing:

Archon needs to be nerfed or changed (which proc mentioned in another post it will be). I say this more for its affect on hybrid or when building together coz its easy to abuse. I.e. spec spam and archon.

But the rest is biased. i.e. you compare units with poor stats to decent units and then the decent units are way overpowered. Fire machine might be imba the first few levels but late game its useless due to its tiny imollation dmg does almost nothing and its stats per gold are pathetic compared to units with good stats like outcast, grizzly, cyborg etc. If you want an imba unit, its things like spawn of dragon.

Wandigoo is an above average unit but again stats per gold not imba (and 7% evasion only really adds 7% to effective hp, which is small).

doomsday is a terrible unit stats wise per gold even factoring in the fortified armour. Steamroller is slightly better, probably quite a balanced ulti unit per gold.

Hybrid pricing has been changed and cb removed see changelog (please dont bring up irrelevant things that have already been considered and changed).

medium armour is awesome vs level 8 (which is a tough early level agreed) but gets raped later on by 14 and 15, so I wouldn't say medium armour is better then heavy armour. The right mix of armour is important as always.

If there is anything in your post I havent addressed or you question my logic let me know and I can detail it more.









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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  lvlupnow on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:51 pm

AA wrote:your post is basically a rant, not a balance discussion.

Its is EXACTLY an opinion about balance which I appreciate, bring ur own one I will consider it to my upcoming version 3.0
1) elves are 1.6 race, didn't you notice? no point bringing this as eGze's fault

Untruth
2) game is NOT designed for x3 exclusively, whatever you may think

But it is supposed to work well on x1 x2 and x3 as well, what me and egZe found possible to be done.
3) comparing tier2 upgrade with tier5 basic is ridiculous. no other word for it. units are supposed to grow in power with each tiers, and early units to lose efficiency later on

It's not ridiculous, the only criteria can be cost, not virtual number of Tier which the unit is. The only thing which should play on higher Tier is that u have to pay more at onc which mean u have to spare. Like 800g cost unit MUST be stronger than 200+200+400g costing one. Don't even try to deny this objective truth.
4) hybrid is imba as it is. absolute no need to lower price

Unfortunatelly neither of us (egZe nor me) think like that so u have a problem...
- in order to have X3 balance, one should redesign ALL races, with all tiers included (well, at least starting few), and have ALL units useful in some way (early tank, early dps, debuf, etc). when did you EVER use pewee in X3?

- the whole system of "ANYTHING-LESS-THEN-300g" is broken, since game is designed for 100g at start and 3x LOWER unit count:

1) this makes 13g "reward" for passing lvl1 ridiculous compared with 117g creep income, while this is not the case in original (where it's carefully chosen value (49g) makes certain units available, and others not)

2) 300g at start makes units such as LoD available in FIRST level

That's why I am uping cost of these units to 325 at example OR making same limit to 6 level as egZe did. Haven't considered yet.
3) 3 times more creeps makes most of debuff abilities 3 times less useful, while buffs retain it's usefulness

4) 3 times more creeps makes difficulty levels MORE difficult, and easy ones MORE easy, making every-noobs-dream come true - just save for lumber for lvlX, send all, gg

i could go on, but i won't. i posted this just because i hate people spilling nonsense and pretending to be learned, while just ranting, and giving no constructive ideas

Well, actually he pointed some good imbalanced units and made me focused on this topic.

you are a @#$%^&* moron!
editing this post, b/c the moderator wants more input.
1. you said it's not his fault, but he can balance the race. that's what we want, more balance. b/c the mavericks are imbal.

2. on garena, players only play x3 mode nowadays. there are so many noobs b/c of imbalanced units from the new races and x3 mode

3. in x3, you can get tier 5 unit at start, therefore there is a point to compare the units from tier 1-5

4. you said a unit that cost 800g must be better than a unit that is upgraded to 800g total. counter ex: fire machine. if you dont know how, then you are too noob for me to explain.
also, you said, hybrid is imba as it is. well there are about 12 races, means you get 1/12 you perfectly want, and a lot of chances that you get what you dont want. hybrid is not good b/c of random, b/c the units in the front won't be all tanks. the formation will get mess up. if you dont think so, then you are too noob for me to explain. in x1 mode, the formation is even more important.

i notice that your post restarted the number order. if you want ppl to take you seriously, at least keep the number order, or ppl would think you can count to 5.

5. i used pewee in x3 in the 1st wave. i upgrade it to veteran for good efficiency. i know it's not the best opening, but i think zeus becomes useless later on. i'd use fire machine than zeus.

6. in the latest version, tier 6 units are not available untill wave 6.

7. i agree with you on the debuff point. ex the negative armor from a unit in the ghost race

8. if i play safe and not just barely survive the wave, i can take on any wave with the race i want. b/c i will have good income to get extra towers to defend. also, it's a team game, my team mates will catch my leaks if i leak.







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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:39 am

@Go Anon

You said "Outcast sucks, it has heavy armor. Cyborg sucks, it has heavy armor."

I just had to stop and LOL at this comment. You make some good comments (so not flaming you) but this was just funny.
Outcast and Cyborg have awesome stats near the best in the game and are very neccessary for lvl 14 and 15. To say the units SUCK because they have heavy armour and are weaker against lvl 8 and 13 shows your lack of knowledge of legion (in some areas, some of your knowledge is good).

Remember they do normal dmg and rape level 8 back. Even though they arent optimal on level 13 they are essential for ghost and mek to own level 14 and 15 with low value.

I wont comment on the rest as there are too many points and too much arguing over too many things in this thread. it would be nice if the different points in the thread were seperate topics and argued/discussed there.


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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:44 am

Sorry last thing Go Anon, I had to comment on (couldnt help myself Smile)

You said "MY LEVEL 7 CLEARS:"

Elf:
5 nightsaber - $1200

How do you get no units except nightsabers if you only allowed to build them after level 5? Do you sell all your units and then build nightsabers? Just curious, because not only would that be a great waste but not sure if you could afford 5 sabers after selling everything (with workers included)?

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:54 am

lol, i dont ever use night saber so wouldnt know. Okay, so normally with aggorant guys like yourself, I normally just challenge them and beat them and burst their big ego's. But can't because you probably dont play on the SA server. So even though you call outkast and cyborg kak units shows you noob. let me prove more how noob you are.

You chose level 7 to try showoff how low value you can do to pass lvl 7. because level 8 kills your useless fire machine build and night sabers (the kak unit they are) are actually effective versus level 7. So here are lower values then yours

Oceanus -

3 mudmen, 4 oceanus, 3 aquas, 2 protons = 1300 , you build the protons on the edges to attract lots of the level 7 satyrs do focus their first shot on either of the protons overkilling it, whilst your units start damaging them before they regroup (advanced strategy which you obviously too noob to know go anon)

Demi human -

4 harlots and 3 scientists = 930 gold, could probably do it with 4 harlots and 2 scientists but not as safe.

Note: this is an old race go anon. As this beats all your values so stfu about new races being imba

Ill test more and beat more of your values because you are noob

nice idea with protons but the whole game in its current difficulty doesn't need it. It gonna change when I realease my insane one. guy4 plz, this man is just kind of envious of ur V.I.P. i dont know exactly what does he want to proove. Anyway, don't flame him, callin FM ultra imba way to beat everything is foolish and everybody knows that, so he only embarrasses himself. Of course I am glad of any discussion here and enlighting me with some kind of little bugs, imbalacements etc. Anyway Mech always gonna be expensive while Beast will be cheap, whether they say how Cyborgs suck or not.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:11 am

Beast -

3 grizly , 1 spawn, 1 harpies - 875

hmmm old race, but beats all your builds. imagine that.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:42 pm

@ Go anon
4 fire machine, 1 modern mage clears lv7. Add an assault tank for lv8 and you clear it.

Fire machine rapes level 1 to 3, so Its worth getting one of them, but then Brawler is much more effective (even with heavy armour - just my opinion though, which I based on stats and its ability). 5 Brawlers and fire machine clears level 8 safely and is cheaper (but any build is fine). Apologies for being a bit harsh on you, but just hate it when guys complain about the new races, because they are really fun and nice races and EGZE has spent alot of time over many versions balancing them so that they are fair.

3 mudmen, 4 oceanus, 3 aquas, 2 protons = 1300

Mudmen have good stats and (just my opinion) but I have calculated balancing tankage with dps amkes for having the lowest values per round. I lean on getting more dps with just enough tankage as I believe the key to 3* waves, is to rape the waves fast and hard. Because once the wave surrounds your units they kill off your army pretty quickly, so I try do as much damage as possible before they start surrounding my army (and diverting the waves with strategies like my proton strategy helps dpsers even more). I try not to waste my money on disciples (as they have crap stats - but just my opinion). Protons with careful placement make 10 not too expensive. The bosses waste their attack potential on protons and when the bosses change targets they take time (whereas when they hitting targets they hit fast).

PS this build holds for 7 and 8 safely (cant remeber if it holds 9 but probably does too), so is expensive for level 7 but then holds nicely for a few rounds after

4 harlots and 3 engineers = 930 gold

The thing is my build is cheap for 7 and its just an example (was just trying to show you old races rape as well Smile). You can use any variation of harlots/scientists, slave masters, minotaurs. I like Harlots and scientists combo because scientists rape ground and harlots rape air (which scientist are weak against). Harlots also have nice dps per gold. For a safe 8 you can replace 1 or 2 harlots with minotaurs and still take it quite cheap.

PS: I think the best thing is to post builds, because some races are weaker on a certain level and stronger on others, so it doesnt realy help to say the races hold 7 with XXXX, its better to do a guide for minimum towers needed for each level and what summons it takes. But nice work on putting a few thought together on builds (just keep away from calling units kak if possible unless they really are kak)







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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:49 pm

@ go anon

Dwarf:
5 gyrocopter, 1 flying machine - $1180

You just gotta be careful here. You right by saying they have insane HP per gold, but their DPS per gold is awful. My experience with gyrocopters is to not over build them too much and heres why. They rape early, this is true but i found (just my opinion) if your army becomes unbalanced with huge tankage and minmal DPS it fails because you take foreva to kill the wave, which means your units cant get back and defend by king in time and the aura summons against you last much longer giving the wave a huge advantage especially in high dps waves like level 17 or level 14 or especially level 20. Level 20 really owns a full gyrocopter build. Now the other bad thing bout copters is that they are range. So other less tanky units tend to run in first and get owned whilst the low dps gyro survives and tikles the difficult waves.

just my opinion for what its worth

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:02 pm

@ anon last thing I think I should mention. In your build you have alpha males over harlots. A common debate really (again this is just my opinion). alpha males vs harlots. I always prefer harlots except if you building mid with someone and they have archon (then attack spd of alpha male boost its attck percentage by a lot with the 10 extra dmg becuase of the attack spped). Harlots outperforms alpha male in dmg and hp per gold (even though it has less range). But the biggest advantage is the net. The net ability fails at the moment for alpha male. It has a high attspd, but wastes a lot of attack potential by casting net. Normally the net is useless too. So in everyway besides range the harlot beats the alpha male but as I said in the beginning this is just my opinion based on stats and my dislike of the net ability.

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  guy4 on Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:33 pm

Harlots outperforms alpha male in dmg and hp per gold

I agree the net helps in air levels (but air is only every 8 levels (5,13,21,29) effectively on 4 levels out of the 31 levels). The cast time on nets actually doesnt allow alpha male to get in 2 hits before harlot attacks (and if the alpha male and round lasts long enough for 2 or 3 nets there is a lot of dps potential lost) but I do agree range attack is more efficient then melee attack and medium armour is slightly better then heavy armour but those 2 small benefits dont make up for the large loss of stats per gold to the harlot or that on later levels you can have 1 mistresses (or 2 mistresses if places correctly) which help a lot. Overall harlots are superior to alpha males even though alpha males do have a few advantages over harlots.

Higher tier units are supposed to be more efficient

I agree with the fact that high tier units are supposed to be more efficient then low tier units but there are exceptions (like you listed the below average violet). The weaker higher tier units will be weaker then the stronger lower level tiers but the game was designed for higher tier units to be more efficient then lower tier units. An example is that people generally spam higher level units at the later levels instead of spamming lower level units. I do agree though thatin the first couple of levels lower tier units can be more efficient as the higher tier units waste a lot of dmg potential by "overkilling" the creeps.

Some units are "good" early but "bad" later

I agree that the first 10 levels are very important but getting 60 income with "weaker" units and needing to sell them isnt efficient. I only build weaker units if I fell itll give me an advantage. Like building 1 fire machine first up for 3 * waves is good but I never get more than 1 fire machine (brawlers are much more effcient). From my replies, you can see that the top 4 income races aren't the new races. Races like demi-human,beast can income hard before 10.

I understand that you wont agree on my above logic because you are stubborn like me Smile.So maybe lets agree to disgree?

It's kind of discussion I like, gj guyZZ

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Re: All the 2.7 races are imbalanced

Post  nicolbolas>jace on Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:01 am

Go Anon wrote:It's obvious that all the 2.7 races are better than the original 1.6 races. Thinking in X3 here because that's all everyone plays. When balancing you could've compared your units to equivalent units in the 1.6 races. Instead you made them all overpowered and now no one picks anything other than Goblin/Arctic/Elf.

thats the problem, the mode "X3" makes it impossible ot balance races, also demi is very imba in x3 if you take the time to get ot level 6. so is beast, oh and ghost is more imba than in regular gameplay..... seriously, i love game balance, but if you try playing REGULAR LTDW (so crazy huh? playing the original game) you will learn how wrong you are probably. also try comparing Spawn of the dragon/aspect or minotaur/bigfoot OR dark priest/meridan to any units in the new races.....
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