Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

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Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  LRN on Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:19 pm

Right now summoning pool in LTD looks like one big platform where summoned units stage before they are sent to the enemy lanes at the beginning of the next round.
Proposed improvement:
1) Make the pool smaller vertically and larger horizontally, so that it completely fits the screen (currently the pool is too long and barely fits the screen vertically, while horizontally it's too narrow and just shows water and useless decorations on left and right sides).
2) Divide the pool into 4 sections. Whenever a unit is summoned, place it into appropriate pool section depending on which lane it is bound to.
3) Add 4 visual indicators to the pool that show which section of the pool is active at the moment for a particular player. Whenever a unit is summoned, it is placed into active section of the pool, and then next section becomes active.

This is supposed to make summoning a lot more organized. AFAIK, in high-level games it IS organized, but players have to make complex calculations on the fly and keep track of where a summoned unit would go, counting from the first round.
While i do not know which skills are considered to be important for LTD, i doubt that the ability to do this kind of calculations and book-keeping is among them. I would rather see more emphasis on making the right decisions (which units to summon, and when).

That is, assuming there IS a predictable algorithm behind the way summoned units are sent to the lanes. If it's purely random, then the point is moot (but then, maybe making it deterministic would be a good idea).


Last edited by LRN on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Emphasis on deterministic behaviour)

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random

Post  nicolbolas>jace on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:00 pm

it is technically completely random (divided evenly, but random, if 6 units sent VS 4 people, the 2 people who get them will be different)
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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  LRN on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:31 pm

Well, the logic behind placing units into summoning pool sections might be random, but giving players visual clues about this (random) behaviour is still desirable.
I.e. at the beginning of every round your marker is randomly set to one of 4 sections (when playing against 4 opponents, that is). Once you summon a unit, it is placed into that section, and the marker gets moved to a different section of the pool, and the next summoned unit will be placed there. The "different section" is chosen randomly among the ones that have least amount of units summoned by this player.
That is, it is still random, still divided evenly, but players do get the information about the choices available to them, and are able to make an educated decision rather than sending summons blindly.
It's not about randomness, it's about the point of the time when the choice is made.

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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  nicolbolas>jace on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:38 pm

LRN wrote:Well, the logic behind placing units into summoning pool sections might be random, but giving players visual clues about this (random) behaviour is still desirable.
I.e. at the beginning of every round your marker is randomly set to one of 4 sections (when playing against 4 opponents, that is). Once you summon a unit, it is placed into that section, and the marker gets moved to a different section of the pool, and the next summoned unit will be placed there. The "different section" is chosen randomly among the ones that have least amount of units summoned by this player.
That is, it is still random, still divided evenly, but players do get the information about the choices available to them, and are able to make an educated decision rather than sending summons blindly.
It's not about randomness, it's about the point of the time when the choice is made.

... how about you can see what summons are being sent as a default.... oh wait..... that's how it works Wink

I really think this is stupid**, this allows you to under build for some levels, KNOWING that you won't get hard summons, that is my view on it. If you want more of a discussion (As do not go on here much) email me at "quinnfitz@comcast.net"

**= it would be good for a map called like "legion td [version (mega/UE/etc)] [number (1.6b/2.0b/2.7/3.4/etc)] learner" (okay, learner isn't the right word)

Also, units are "told" who they are going to a split second after (might be before) creeps spawn.
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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  LRN on Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:07 pm

nicolbolas>jace wrote:
LRN wrote:Well, the logic behind placing units into summoning pool sections might be random, but giving players visual clues about this (random) behaviour is still desirable.
I.e. at the beginning of every round your marker is randomly set to one of 4 sections (when playing against 4 opponents, that is). Once you summon a unit, it is placed into that section, and the marker gets moved to a different section of the pool, and the next summoned unit will be placed there. The "different section" is chosen randomly among the ones that have least amount of units summoned by this player.
That is, it is still random, still divided evenly, but players do get the information about the choices available to them, and are able to make an educated decision rather than sending summons blindly.
It's not about randomness, it's about the point of the time when the choice is made.

... how about you can see what summons are being sent as a default.... oh wait..... that's how it works Wink

I really think this is stupid**, this allows you to under build for some levels, KNOWING that you won't get hard summons, that is my view on it.
That's either a complete misunderstanding of my suggestion, or some of the most acid (and misplaced) piece of sarcasm i've ever seen.
My intention is not to let ENEMIES see which summons are going where, my intention is to let YOU see where are your summons going to be sent.
OTOH i'm always playing with -mm mode. If you do not, then this would indeed divulge too much information to the enemy. But then this can be rectified by applying the fog of war to the pool by default.
I'm surprised you're taking so many things for granted. It's not like everything is set in stone...

nicolbolas>jace wrote:Also, units are "told" who they are going to a split second after (might be before) creeps spawn.
That could also be changed.

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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  nicolbolas>jace on Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:14 pm

LRN wrote:
nicolbolas>jace wrote:
LRN wrote:Well, the logic behind placing units into summoning pool sections might be random, but giving players visual clues about this (random) behaviour is still desirable.
I.e. at the beginning of every round your marker is randomly set to one of 4 sections (when playing against 4 opponents, that is). Once you summon a unit, it is placed into that section, and the marker gets moved to a different section of the pool, and the next summoned unit will be placed there. The "different section" is chosen randomly among the ones that have least amount of units summoned by this player.
That is, it is still random, still divided evenly, but players do get the information about the choices available to them, and are able to make an educated decision rather than sending summons blindly.
It's not about randomness, it's about the point of the time when the choice is made.

... how about you can see what summons are being sent as a default.... oh wait..... that's how it works Wink

I really think this is stupid**, this allows you to under build for some levels, KNOWING that you won't get hard summons, that is my view on it.
That's either a complete misunderstanding of my suggestion, or some of the most acid (and misplaced) piece of sarcasm i've ever seen.
My intention is not to let ENEMIES see which summons are going where, my intention is to let YOU see where are your summons going to be sent.
OTOH i'm always playing with -mm mode. If you do not, then this would indeed divulge too much information to the enemy. But then this can be rectified by applying the fog of war to the pool by default.
I'm surprised you're taking so many things for granted. It's not like everything is set in stone...

that is my confusion, sorry. Smile

nicolbolas>jace wrote:Also, units are "told" who they are going to a split second after (might be before) creeps spawn.
That could also be changed.

maybe, but what would you do when you summoned something inbetween rounds?

also, i have about 1-2 hours until i will probably not respond ON THE FORUMS for a week or so.
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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  LRN on Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:50 pm

maybe, but what would you do when you summoned something inbetween rounds?
There's no such thing as "in-between rounds" in LTD. It's always either Round N, or Getting Ready To Round N. Anyway, i don't see the problem.

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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  LRN on Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:59 am

UP (since LegionX3 v4.0 is coming up, this feature gets another chance at being implemented).

By the way, what about changing the name to "Legionnaires", or maybe "Legion Lords"? It's still legionny, but doesn't sound like "yet another LegionTD version over9000, made by some bored script kiddie".

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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  von_Oberstain on Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:41 pm

aside from still being random, knowing where each summon goes somehow seems... wrong... exploitable, probably. here's exploit idea:

send demon hunter
send 3 militia for other players
send demon hunter (25% chance he goes to same player)
send 3 militia
send demon hunter (25% he goes to player who has 2 demons already, 50% to one of two guys with one)
send 3 militia
send demon hunter (25% for 4 dh on same guy, 25% for 3+1, 25% for 2+2 and lastly 25% for even)

i'm currently rather sleepy to actually calculate if this is 'equal chance trap' (when things are look like they are statistically more probable than they are - like flipping coin if previous hundred flips were 'head') or real exploit that could make chances summons to get concentrated on 1-2 players... i would think of it regardless, since it looks like interesting statistical question
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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  LRN on Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:36 pm

Well, that was the kind of intention i've had. As far as i can see right now, the process of sending summoned units depends on luck, not on calculation or skill of any kind. I.e. you're more likely to succeed by sending units that fit well together with creeps, because creeps are the only factor that is unchanged, so wherever your summoned unit lands, it will do some good. Such combos are few and easy to anticipate.
I'm trying to make the summoning part more crucial for victory, more useful, make it so that it requires attention and thought.

As for sending 4 DHs, that is unreal, you'll never get that much lumber with -ns mode.

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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  von_Oberstain on Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:27 pm

well, you're a cruel man - intentionally destroying one by one opponents Smile

oh, i thought some more - this would certainly allow uneven 2:2 send:
2 militia + 2 demon
send militias until one or both demon slots are empty, then send 1-2 demons
repeat...

4+ demons are not uncommon in UE (especially with lucky gifts), which economy is more lumber-based (as the new X3 will be also), people in modes that allow more aggressive play (hybrid, -db) can max wisps in 21-23 levels.

concentrating blood orcs on 13, or dinos on any early level would result in same...

maybe some other kind of directed behavior for summons can be made, this one looks too... aggresive
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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  HuanAk on Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:17 am

you can control common if you are smart.

summon usually work like this :

Summon pool = ( s1, s2, s3, s4, s5, s6, s7, s8, s9...)
Player pool = (p1,p2,p3,p4)

wave start:
1, random number between 1-4, result = 3
2, send s1 to player 3
3, send s2 to player 4
4, send s3 to player 1
5, send s4 to player 2
6, send s5 to player 3
7, send s6 to player 4
8, send s7 to player 1
9, send s8 to player 2
10, send s9 to player 3

so player 3 get s1, s5, s8
player 4 get s2, 26
player 1 get s3, s7
player 2 get s4, s8

Just try them out in single player to see

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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  LRN on Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:12 pm

Do players have their personal summon pools, or do they have a shared summon pool, from which summons are sent to opposing players?

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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  HuanAk on Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:00 am

share summon pool.

like first in first out I guess

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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  von_Oberstain on Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:10 am

as majority of things in legion (towers included), true owner of summons are so-called king-players (9,10,11,12), they just have player colour of individual players, and custom value to determine player-specific events (eg. who gets the gold on kill)

there is currently no separation of summons based on sending player (except visual), they all belong to king-player and are sent one-by-one to opponents. summon group is formed in time of sending, while their placement on sending area is random. numbering of summons in group, which will determine order of sending is theoretically random, as the position places are random. numbering of individual groups in areas is... weird - i never experimented with THIS group, but did with others and they don't follow simple rule like most upper-left to most right-below, most i can say is that is semi-arranged, whatever would that mean (take 501234 as an example, for a line-aligned and built in 012345 order group, and it differs with number of units etc)...

anyhow, sending player is, in fact, king-player, real sender just gets income...

EDIT: "time of sending" refers to time summons are moved to warp areas, not the time they enter the keeping area. so, last moment possible.
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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  LRN on Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:30 am

Oh-kay...So, is HuanAk right or not? I mean, let's assume that the pool is shared. For simplicity, assume a 2x2 match. Consider this scenario:
Player 1 sends a peasant. Pool: P1
Player 2 sends an archer. Pool: P1 A1
Player 1 sends a peasant. Pool: P1 A1 P2
Player 2 sends an archer. Pool: P1 A1 P2 A2
Player 1 sends a peasant. Pool: P1 A1 P2 A2 P3
Player 2 sends an archer. Pool: P1 A1 P2 A2 P3 A3
New round begins.
A pool starting point is randomly chosen to be A2.
Enemy 1 gets:
A2 A3 A1
Enemy 2 gets:
P3 P1 P2

Would it hold? That is, if the order in which summons are bought is coordinated among the players in the team, it is possible to make sure that particular summons go together (to a random enemy player)? That would be essentially the same as what i was proposing, only it would not be known, which enemy gets the arranged pack of summons. And it would require good team coordination.

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Re: Separate summoning pools with visual indication and deterministic behaviour

Post  HuanAk on Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:19 pm



I never tested them, but I think it should work like that base on code.

anyway, you can try out and let me know the answer Smile

eg, 1 player vs 4 computer, and 2 players vs 4 computer

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