Shadow - LOD cooldown

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Shadow - LOD cooldown

Post  imprez on Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:07 pm

Need to do something with LOD cooldown. Shouldn't have cool down for infernal as Shadow's specialty is summoning. No point if I change builder to seek for Messiah.
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Re: Shadow - LOD cooldown

Post  Dazzlee on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:15 am

To balance LoD and Hades is really hard. Since the first Legion of Lisk LoD and Hades got buffed and nerfed, buffedn and nerfed and so on.

This unit is really powerful and with a few of them you can handle nearly every level without the recommended value.

Try to improve your playstyle and mix up some armortypes in front of LoD, in combination with Infernal or Imps (on Hades). Thats my advice.

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Re: Shadow - LOD cooldown

Post  HuanAk on Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:13 am


the reason for cool down is because Messiah is bug.

it give mana regen base on +5% mana rather than +5 mana.

so everyone will become full mana in 20 seconds (less if you combine mana aura with passive mana regen on LoD)

without cool down, LoD can summon pet every 15 seconds, which can defend late game level for unlimit time (because fight usually last 30-40 seconds, so they can summon 2nd or 3rd pet per fight)


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Re: Shadow - LOD cooldown

Post  von_Oberstain on Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:41 pm

LoD is kinda balanced - it's designed to do its own tanking and dps is not that high. 20 seconds cooldown is also relatively good...

Hades is problematic - unit that takes X1 turtle alone for 655g (well, alone of the higher tier unit, usually you need 2-3, sometimes more to do it ~1200g) and in mass (like arena), imps become invincible. and balancing has to include:
- hades himself (nothing to brag about regarding stats, fact is they *could* be buffed) and his mana
- diablo and his mana
- imps, coming in packs of 3 and having way too much HP for their own good - pair it with lifesteal and some healing... unbreakable wall in front of all other units

in Pro, we reduced imp HP somewhat, and reduced number of imp raised to 2 (and it STILL performs above average)
diablo is untouched (maybe we decreased mana, i can't remember), but then again, most Pro battles last ~20 sec so one hades spawns one diablo (perhaps 2, with aura or if battle drags on)

anyhow, spawning of 2-3 diablos / hades has to be stopped by cooldown cause it leads to spawning of very large number of imps...

therefore, i think original cooldown is ok, maybe should even be longer since huan said that battles lasts significantly longer, maybe even increase is in order?

to huan:
i think (may be wrong) that mana increase coming from aura is always added last, and is independent of all other modifiers, and since all regs are 1/sec it's just

unit reg + aura bonus

added each second. at least in wc3 is (heroes don't profit more from having mana reg items)


Last edited by von_Oberstain on Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Shadow - LOD cooldown

Post  HuanAk on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:51 am

von

the original cool down is 100 seconds (100 mana, 1 mana per seconds)

so after 5% mana regen aura, it will regen 6 mana per second

100/6 = 17 seconds

so with 5% mana aura, cool down change from 100 seconds to 17 seconds.

and fight in level 20+ usually last 30-40 seconds... hence LOD/Hades can summon 2nd or 3rd pet with mana aura.

or unlimit pet for level 31+


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Re: Shadow - LOD cooldown

Post  von_Oberstain on Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:31 pm

huan, you misunderstood me. spell as such has a 20 sec cooldown.

LoD, yes 1/sec mana regeneration, 20 sec cooldown, but hades has 1.5/sec - was a question of heated debate (that made me remember, i usually don't know all units mana regs Smile ), since hades were on thin line on being useless on legion lords levels (without mana for diabolic, they indeed were)

original regeneration by messiah was also 3%? so, even with aura, cooldown wasn't dictating timing of new infernal/diablo (as you said), cause both full mana regenerations were over spell 20 sec cooldown (applies to hades casting diablo)

problem with diablo is that each summons 4 imps = 1400hp of meatshield and 2-3 could produce 2800-4200hp, all originating from just one hades - a way too much (even 1400 is), and they don't even have cooldown - entirely mana-dependent casted by trigger... and diablo has no mana regenerataion on his own, so "every 20 sec a new set of imps" induced by aura is really overpowered

on the other hand x1 battles last ~20-25 seconds, so with MEGA longer battles, maybe longer hades cooldown would be in order?
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Re: Shadow - LOD cooldown

Post  HuanAk on Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:46 am


Well, LISK never put any "hard cool-down" on any spell setting, spell will cast as soon as mana is full.

so I am talking about "soft cool-down" base on mana regen.

most unit have 20 mana, so "soft cool-down" is 20 seconds, and effect of mana regen aura is small (5% x 20 = +1mana/second)






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Re: Shadow - LOD cooldown

Post  von_Oberstain on Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:34 am

hmmm, you're right...

but then again, if battles last 30-40 sec, each spell which typically get casted once can be casted 2 or maybe 3 times, if aura is at 5%

[EDIT]

in element race, aura is used just for tier5 and 6. maybe reducing of aura (perhaps buffing t5 and/or 6 some in other way, if it's needed) would be better solution? this way, most of spells typically casted once get a chance for 2nd, sometimes 3rd cast
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Re: Shadow - LOD cooldown

Post  imprez on Thu May 03, 2012 9:31 pm

I don't see LOD casting 2nd time during battle... unless when it spawn below king area. I tried once with messiah and I build one LOD all to the back just to check it out.. no summons for 2nd...

But come to think about it, if it really summons the 2nd time, then looks quite imba... Very Happy
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