Balance and bug thread

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Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:58 pm

Hi there,

i found a bug with the Tier1 unit of the Chaos builder, its the same like the Druid bug with Elf builder,
u get 50 Gold when selling it, although u only paied 20.

The Fire Machine of the Goblin builder has the Overload ability, i dont think thats intended Very Happy

In case of balance, i dunno how to start, either the lvls 6, 9, maybe 15 and one or two others r completely out of balance,
or the other lvls r just too easy.
But there is another problem with the "easy" levels, even though they r easier, i dont dare to build worker, because i would leak lvl 6.
Up to now, i only could hold lvl 6 with Goblin, Orc and Corrupted nature builder, with 2 / 4 / 4 wisps.

The "Older" the builder is, the more diffcult it is to clear such lvls/be succesful in the game.

I have seen players with 14 wisps at lvl 11, but i dont know how they did it o.O
and they leaked lvl 15, but not a single other lvl.
Wether i just didnt find the right build yet or its just impossible to hold lvl 6 with other builders i dunno Sad
And just to be clear, its not only lvl6, all levels need more balancing.

The Tooltext of the upgrade of Tier2 from Corrupted nature is above his box.

And im not sure of the ability of the Tier4 from Corrupted Nature, i dont see something special happen, maybe it doesnt work ???
(both, the normal and the upgraded unit)

The ability of the tree of sacrafice "blood of life" starts with pulses in a 3 sec (?) interval, while fighting the pulses are faster,
its like a perma heal and way too imba.

Some1 already said it, i think, the bosses r slightly too easy, too.

Im curious, why do we have a wave of legion lords before the fight of both sides starts?
I dont think thats necessary...

And just my own opinion about the cosmetics of the arena (area), dont fill the map with too much stuff.
Do u know YouTD? Its a nice map, but way too much Doodads and such. Dont reach that status pls <3
(i prefer a plain area, rather bright than dark)

PS: i cant wait for the update !!!!!

i hope the input is useful, well see what ill find next.


Last edited by Grassfrog on Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  LRN on Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:32 am

I've been able to beat level 6 with Element and Demi-human (although level 6 with summons might be too much; Element barely made it), with 5 wisps + upgrade (i.e. i was building +1 wisp during each level, and, if i had enough money left, also one wisp before level 1; and instead of getting 6th wisp i did 60-gold upgrade after getting 5th wisp).
So i would rather say you're failing to get the right build.
Then again, an unlucky combination of summons might be enough to tip the balance and make you leak.

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:10 am

yeah, i failed in my strat till now, i changed it today and i slowly get a hang of this version Wink

nevertheless u need a value of at least 1100 for lvl6 and that jump from lvl5 is way too much.
lvl9 seems to be slightly too strong, at least compared to lvl 8 and 10.

i noticed the aura from blood orc, tier3 upgrade does not work properly.

the ability of the tier5 from chaos, the fire elemental upgrade, does not work or is that weak, that i didnt noticed it o.O

and something about the gg mode...
it is far to imba if there is one incomer in the game, but it is also bad to not have it, if someone just leaks a few units here and there.
imo reducing the gold is also not good, especially if someone leaks several lvls.
what do u think about splitting 100% of the gold evenly among the team. this way even the leaker may get back into the game...?

i just noticed that there is a food cap of 260.
we got a feeder in the team (2 at the beginning), thats why i reached that cap at lvl 28.
if we consider that we can possible reach lvl 40, a cap of 260 seems a bit low.

furthermore, corrupted nature and goblin are definitely the strongest builder right now.
if we reach the final lvl (if it it is 30 or 40 doesnt matter, cause the "weak" ones always leave before those lvls),
only those builder and maybe one other per team is left.


Last edited by Grassfrog on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : dunno if this was humoristic, edited post to clarify things)

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  LRN on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:44 pm

I was able to reach 29th level with Demi-human, and pass it. My force was mostly decimated, but they held. Sadly, a massive leak from the other player finished them off.
I think i would have passed 30th level as well.

Also, your suggestions are a bit unclear, at least to me (don't know, maybe von_Oberstain can make sense of them). You're referring to your fellow players (these Some1 and U guys) , but these names tell nothing (to me, at least).

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:02 pm

lvl 29 is very strong, it often decides the game if more than one player leaks there.

something aside from balancing, do you know a way to find the game faster?
i mean, im playing on bnet and sometimes im searching for this map several minutes.
is there something like /whois ..., or anything like that? (im not used to these commands).

back to balance:
the chaos builder tier2 unit is supposed to have an ability according to the tooltext, the same goes for his upgrade, but there is no ability.

with my new strategy, the lvls 3-5 seem a bit easy, it may be just my imagination though.
for example, u can beat lvl 5 with a value of 600-700 without any problems, even with beast, who is weak vs magic,
it was quite easy (i had a value around 800 though).

The upgrade of Chaos tier6, the tribune unit does not have food cost, although the father dragon costs 2 food.

what do u think of making the dots of beast stack?
i know the way they r now may be more balanced...
but it makes the gnoll unit kinda useless, or at least, less usefull.
even more useless now that he cost only 30 gold less than tier3.
if u make them stack, both dots need to get nerfed/changed, or u just change the ability of the gnoll?!?



the mode -ar does not work properly, at least as singleplayer, didnt test it online.
u get no builder and on the second page of your "questionmark / builder picker" always the chaos and corrupted nature builder shows up.

E:
i said earlier that the ability of the creeping willow does not work, nvm that, it works, i just never had enough hp to see it Very Happy

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  von_Oberstain on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:45 pm

thanks for the input!

new version (a3) is ready, needs a bit more testing (though it is doomed to have bugs Sad )

- level6 is fortified, having more siege helps a lot. in my test games, having that in mind, i didn't have much trouble with it, except i needed to prepare for it (siege = 125%, spell = 118%, kinda hidden bonus spell gets in ignoring the armor, chaos = 100%, still well over 70-80% of other damage types). also, try to avoid relying exclusively on medium armored tanks, which suffer -20% penalty against normal
- all other levels indeed need balancing, but again, i need input on that - since 29th seems to be problematic for all, it's going to be nerfed
- as far as i know, the harpy and gnoll poison do stack, and upgraded gnolls are used (well, in X1 where 99% of my experience comes from) to pass lvl1-3 with low values and investing in lumbering, afterward adding other units to survive 4-5, while beast has very little problem with 6-7 (siege/heavy combination)
- in general changed t1 and t2 unupgraded should allow easy lumbering at start and are overpowered intentionally. however, they lose their usability more quickly.
- corrupted nature growth effect was REALLY bugged, is fixed in a3
- chaos t2 had bug indeed
- lags in some abilities - map is, i think, pretty heavy on CPU and more units are on map, things get worse. for example, blood orc aura has practically no lag in Pro, while there is few seconds delay in Revo - and trigger is the same. well, it's going to be last custom aura in game, that's for sure...

again thanks for input, it's much appreciated
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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:42 pm

i now can beat lvl6 with nearly every builder, i just had to change my strategie from early heavy units to mass low tier units.
although i can beat lvl 6 this way, i have massiv problems with lvl 14 and 15, but its only a matter of time until i find the right balance of units Wink

for the moment im glad that the low tier units are usable again, thx for that, i missed them :')

beast is finally viable again (at least for me, in the past i had always massive problems with this builder Very Happy)
i did not know that the dots stack, good if they do Wink
i noticed that there was no second buffplacer on the enemy unit, but it may not have been attacked by both units, dunno...

atm i believe that lvl 6, 9, 14, 15 and 29 are the strongest lvls, they often decide the game.
that does not mean that they are way too strong, people just dont know yet how to prepare for them (like me 2 days ago)
but again, im curious what happens if u nerf them a bit and buff some other lvls.
only small buffs in hp for lvl 3 and 4,
a dmg buff for lvl 5,
a slight hp nerf for lvl 6,
a small dmg (and maybe hp) buff for 8,
a small hp nerf on 9,
slightly more hp to 10 (and 20),
a bit more dmg for lvl 12,
a bit less more hp for 14,
not sure abot lvl 15 it is strong but again by far not unbeatable
i cant tell for the other level, usually we have at least 1 leaker in the team and the bonus gold u get there makes it difficult
to tell if the lvls are balanced or my army simply overfed

someone already spoke of his meridian fleeing from the battlefield, i experienced the same with the druid from elf builder.
one time it was my unit and an other time it belonged to orange (different games).
my druid ran the way the creeps are supposed to go to the king, the druid from orange tried to fight for yellow ( i didnt saw the whole scene, just him running back to his own army coming from yellow).
it seems to appear randomly and without any clear reason (it may be aggro from yellow creeps in one situation, but my druid did not have any aggro for sure).



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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  von_Oberstain on Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:43 am

well, a long balancing period will be surely needed, for units and creep-waves alike. currently, waves strength aren't balanced at all, except through complicated and confusing series of value-calculating formulas inherited from 1.6b. anyway, a strength of waves *should* be uneven, though in controlled manner - lvl6 was a good example - in 1.6b it is considerably harder for mech or tribesman-massing demi, while beast sweeps the floor with it (exactly opposite of what happened at lvl5). some waves we'll left to be somewhat stronger than normal (some for certain races only, some for all), but i guess it will evolve till it reaches stable and acceptable values.

A LONG (AND SAD) HISTORY OF LEGION TD WAR
----------------------------------------------

there are few things i have to explain first. original author of map (Lisk) created this wonderful, interesting and exciting TD. i started playing it rather early, think it's more than 3 years ago. at that time, there were 5-6 races, and Legion was "people's map" - meaning everyone could host it, and not needing super-fast internet or good CPU or anything. above all, the game-list on bnet wasn't screwed like it is now, so player-created maps actually appeared in list. there were MANY games hosted, even i could host with my 0.25mbit upload without lags.

one (faithful Smile ) day, Lisk released 1.5 and left project but also left open map code (which was very nice). what wasn't so nice is introduction of hybrid and marine (at that time, even now, one of top-imba races) and the HUGE lag increase. map was so laggy, that even 100mbit hostbots couldn't host it properly. quick-fixes followed, but it never become "peoples", rather than "bots" map again

several months from Lisk official retirement, i joined eGze, who had done much work on editing map and creating races, as a balancer and spokeperson, mainly for new (at time) UE project (X1 only, now Pro). we formed original team, with eGze as mapmaker and rest were experienced players/testers/balancers. our original goals were quite different than they are now (more ambitious, to say the least). unfortunately, eGze retired more than 2 years ago, leaving team with no real mapmaker - i took the role cause i sucked the least at it, but it's sad truth that i'm not good at it.

with help of friends (huanAK and saucer in programming department and another mapmaker who helped me with other stuff), map was even optimized considerably. this may not be noticeable immediately, but consider that 8-races 1.6b (meaning MAX active abilities were for EIGHT races) has grown to 14 (and modes like -db -tb and hybrid in general tend to allow ALL of abilities checks and active triggers to be active all the time, while 1.42 game could easily pass with just 4-5 races) and map speed is similar.

why this is a sad story? well, it's sad just for me Smile. i devoted a lot of free time (which isn't much, i'm not much younger than age listed Smile ), in editing the map. often sacrificing playing (and other) time to editing, my own play level reduced from veryverygood and highly experienced (i DO have about 3000 games in replay folder) to something... different. at this stage, even my preferred job (balancer) is done worse than it should be, since i have so much less time to play and gain necessary experience, which would lead to more balanced game

------------------------------------------

how is this relevant to, for example, pathing problems with some units? well, simply:

"i don't know how to do fix it"

map would benefit greatly with appearance of REAL mapmaker, which hasn't happen even if i advertised it for two years. ideally, there is also place for modeler, jass programmer and lots more. maybe it will change in the future. until then, all of you have to put up with me, and swallow the bitter pill that some bugs won't be fixed - especially ones that happen rarely enough not to be game-losing ones (at least, not more then random disconnection or other bnet/garena problems), and at the same time are hard to reproduce (i did tried to reproduce meridian bug - in short, it didn't happen to me. i believe it happens, but haven't got faintest idea why Sad )

i the meantime, what can virtually EVERYONE contribute, with just a little good will?

- write down values for each level that you encounter

example: one player leaks lvl5, for instance, other 3 pass. write down his value and lowest passing value (considering that leakers build isn't worst in the world). do it several times and post results (it doesn't need to be replays, values doesn't have to be yours - i need just the numbers). post results in the forum and it will be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:10 pm

The value calculation of mech is somehow broken.
As soon as i build a Zeus, the calculation is wrong (less than it should be).

At the end of the game, after lvl30/40 when the king is defeated, there appears a box with the following choices
-Restart
-Decrease difficulty
-Load game
-Quit

if you choose "decrease difficulty" nothing happens, i dont know about the other options yet.

The bonus gold from slave mastery is not correct, according to the tooltext (its way more than it should be).

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  von_Oberstain on Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:51 pm

that is in single player, right? chose lan instead and play solo, and it won't happen.

zeus - true, fixed
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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:10 am

i started the game in lan, but played solo.
until now it never happened to me online.

is the storm trooper supposed to have no food cost?

and what do u think about the change of "gg" mode?
its not an important change, but it maintains the balance a bit more, imo.

i just played a game with -tbmmhg40ggx3 as mode in the scoreboard (it said "replay" in brackets, too ????)
there was a bug that the enemy stats are all visible, except the kill count.

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  von_Oberstain on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:50 pm

well, now that you mentioned it, i suppose it should cost 1 food...

multiboards - they have weird bugs sometimes - like having two timers or king multiboard disappears for no reason. i blame blizzard for that (seriously)

hmmmm, change -gg how? eGze changed it to 1g per kill, but popular request was 100% gold. true, it's not hard to change %, but i believe people are used to this

showing all stats? interesting - i thought to implement it as a feature, but than again, i hate 'mm' mode and believe teams should see each other and respond to opponents actions (eg. lvl20 small units send can be countered if spotted). otherwise, this is probably one of those multiboard bugs...
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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:18 pm

another thing about the scoreboard, but the one at the end of the game, it never shows the number of leaks and catched leaks.

and i found a major bug, you can build on the higher terrain, where the buildings are, if you have the pink or orange slot,
the builder can walk through the trees uphill and builds on the corrupted terrain.

there is a gap that enables a demon hunter to leave the area in the arena where the creeps wait to attack the king.

about the gg change, my idea was to split the gold even between the team.
just an example: if blue leaks 12 creeps with 5g bounty (total amount=60g),
than the total amount of 60g is split between the team (here 4 players),
so everyone gets 15 gold.
this way there is no gold wasted, none gets extremely fed (hence the balance is maintained) and
the leaker has a chance to get back into in the game.


another thing, i started to note down the value of my builds and compared it with your suggested value,
the file contains two tables, the first is for alpha2, the second for alpha3.
you may get an overview of the values for alpha3.

i marked the "very easy" and "very hard" levels.
the link is at the end of this post.


i just remembered that someone asked if you need to "click" to start legiontd, just to clear things,
i noticed the same, but there is no need to click, the map "autoclicks" after 55-56 sec,
u can see it if u join a hostbot, watch your loadprogress on the loading screen and compare it with the load time the bot tells you, one time you click and one time u dont, it always works for me, if i do, my loadtime is ~6 sec, if i dont click its ~56.
(thats not really important, just nice to know)

the tooltext of various units is wrong, thats not really important in an alpha, imo,
but the description of brawlers armor may be a bit more important, it says its heavy, though he does not have armor at all.
the same thing with blood orc tier 1 and 2.
the tooltext of tier1 says that it has pierce dmg, while the "round in progress" period the unit has chaos dmg and
in the fight it has pierce dmg (i want to note that tier 1 atm is not worth buying it, maybe that changes if it has the chaos dmg?!?)

and the third upgrade of tier2, according to the tooltext, has heavy armor, but it has medium armor while fighting (while "round in progress" period [lets call it ripp from now on ~.~] it has heavy armor)

the nature tier2 may need a slight nerf in attackspeed. now it is 0.3, atm this units dps is insane ~60 dps, the upgrade does 67,5 dps, so it somehow isnt even worth to up it, if u change it to 0,35 attack speed its ~51 dps, maybe lower the cost for the upgrade a bit (im not sure how much it is atm) and it should be fine.

its the same with cor. nature and mech, a really small nerf in their attackspeed seems necessary, nothing more than 0.5 - 0.8.
these range units are very strong early on (the value with these builder is way lower compared to others on the same lvl),
i know you did that on purpose, but they may be a bit too strong if you consider the balance between the builder,
instead of reducing the attackspeed you can make them into glass canons (reduce their hp), its still an alpha so you can try around Wink

something else about nature builder. the tier 6 upgrade, tree of knowledge is supposed to do aoe dmg upon death, but the ability doesnt work. im not sure but i believe i experienced the same with corr. natures ulti upgrade.

i believe that the tier1 of elf could need a change too, the hp buff just doesn't feel right and if you compare it to tier2 its isnt really worth
to build it, neither as dd (because the upgrade is not a dd anymore, more a hybrid out of dd and tank), nor as good tank.

3 more things about the chaos builder.
first, the value of tier1 doesnt show off with the correct numbers in the scoreboard (like zeus)
second, the tier3 buffs enemy units with bonus dmg and armor, if i understand the spell correct this shouldnt happen Smile
third, tier6 is ignored by enemy creeps until its the only tower left, it doesnt matter where i build them.


something about the upgrade of tier2 from mech, zeus (and storm trooper), it sometimes happens that these units attack the enemy
fighters on the other side (east/west side), this happens to the slots teal <-> yellow and purple <-> orange.

the upgrade of shadow tier2 (nightcrawler) sells for more gold then it should (140g).
and i believe the zombies that he spawns have to much hp, what about make them tank only 1 hit (1hp), the ability is still very strong, a dd with in build tank capabilitys !?

another thing about shadow, now, that the tier 2 is buffed with high dmg and low cost, the upgrade of tier1 to fire archer is wasted,
it does less dps, has less hp and costs the same, roughly Wink
it would be sad if the unit will be forgotten...


i also noticed that with the current balance of levels , medium armor is not needed (just beast could make use outta it at lvl 16 Very Happy)
lvl 13 and 16 aside, which are balanced, imo, especially 8 and 12 are very easy and furthermore you need heavy armor for lvl 9.


theres is also an unbalance between the builder (like i already mentioned before), i can have full wisp and lumber at lvl 18 with demi human, mech, nature, and goblin, arctic.
i am trying to achieve this with every builder, but these are the only ones it works so far.

in contrast to these builders are beast, elf, chaos, element with whom i fail to achieve this, maybe i just didnt find the right strat yet,
maybe they are far weaker, i cant tell for sure, we will see....

i want to state that the map is very easy with some builder, while with others you have to be creative to find a way to beat some lvls !
im exited to see how a3 will be and how the balance will be in the next versions!


what do you think about taking the collision size away, or reduce it greatly (maybe by mode)?
it's a x3 only problem that the units tend to block themselves, run around doing nothing, sometimes for several seconds.
especially after lvl 20 this is a real problem for some builders.



Last edited by Grassfrog on Sat May 05, 2012 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Sat May 05, 2012 2:02 am

first reports bout a3:

windsaber has a value bug (like zeus had)

bird of luck seems to be supposed to give an evasion aura, there is no aura and no "miss" of enemy creeps on element units other than bird of luck

there appears a number above the head of ghost ulti

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  von_Oberstain on Sat May 05, 2012 5:30 am

ah, a really large body of text! normally, i enjoy reading them, only i that now i have very limited time on disposal...

so, i'll look into attachment tomorrow, and answer in length...

until then, just a clarification - pink and orange being able to build on high - that is only appearing as 'green', but there is no actual building possibility? or i have missed it? (terrain will be changed anyway to prevent this, only matters how *urgent* this need to be)

there is practically no changes in balance between A2 and A3 (i've seen rangers and bashers as potentially overpowered before, only waited for some confirmation)
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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Sat May 05, 2012 6:18 am

the usual terrain prevents building units on it, its the corrupted terrain that enables building units on it.

im not sure about the bashers, but the range units of nature, cor. nature, mech and shadow are very strong.
im not good in math, i just can say how it feels to me :/
while shadow and mech may stay as they are, cor. nature and nature could need a slight nerf, nothing more than 5-10 dps.
imo a dps of 50-55 is fine for these units.

if we talk about basher, are we talking about beast builder? or marine?
neither of them is too strong, imo.

more about a3:
the tooltext of dreadnaught is the same as leviathans.
there is a value bug with the forrest demon, he also has no food cost.
the new shadow unit is supposed to have a berserk-like ability, the ability does not activate.
the goblin tier3 unit, the first unit costs 80g, the upgrade 400g!! and the final up 400g again.
the tooltext of the ability of arctics new unit is missing

there are three units with a "lightning-like spell hits several units with magic dmg", maybe you should differ them a bit :/

i've wrote some thoughts i consider now as questionable.
im curious about your answer Wink

ive updated the list:
http://ifile.it/wahe4qk

E: OK, the range units (archer, spider, sniper...) are REALLY op.
u can have full economy with cor. nature at the end of lvl 16, maybe even earlier (at least 1 level is possible), i have still room for improvement. i havent tested it with all builder, but i believe its possible too.

E: hmm, its not possible, at least not with mech, his medium armor tanks are way too weak,
its not possible with nature either, cor. nature is way stronger than nature (and any other builder atm).

E: oh well, im ashamed of myself...
i tried to reproduce it with a3 and failed miserable... (at least i have a replay of the first time Very Happy)
are you sure you didnt change anything in balance of units and creeps yet?

E: there is something strange, builds that usually work in a2 doesnt work now, i cant hold lvl 6 with 1100g in a3 although i need ~950g in a2 ?!?!?

E: the lucent beam of night elfs tier3 upgrade does no dmg.

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  von_Oberstain on Sat May 12, 2012 1:10 am

doing some fixes right now... can you clarify a bit on this:

"there is a gap that enables a demon hunter to leave the area in the arena where the creeps wait to attack the king."

it is a hole in a wall? (i fixed it just now, but if it's something else, i'll have to do... something else)

i'll answer in more detail to your previous posts, since it is likely this to be an editor-afternoon (and a night, perhaps) - time permitting, both bugfix alphas will be released tonight, but don't hold breath - considering my previous proven unreliability on that matter...
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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Sat May 12, 2012 1:49 am

no problem, take your time.

there is the gate that separates the arena and the spawn points of summons and the creepwave.
the gate continues with walls and is supposed to end with the horizontal wall which separates the whole top area.

between these two walls, there is a small gap that enables summons with low collision size to slip through.

E: the chaos builder tier2 ability does activate now, but it always and only gives -2 armor.
the tier1 icon for the upgrade does not say that it has an ability.

E: there is a bug if u sell the outcast, u dont get the gold back but the unit disapears when the round begins.


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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  von_Oberstain on Sat May 12, 2012 4:16 am

Grassfrog wrote:another thing about the scoreboard, but the one at the end of the game, it never shows the number of leaks and catched leaks.

and i found a major bug, you can build on the higher terrain, where the buildings are, if you have the pink or orange slot,
the builder can walk through the trees uphill and builds on the corrupted terrain.

there is a gap that enables a demon hunter to leave the area in the arena where the creeps wait to attack the king.

ok, fixed gap this and no more corrupted terrain. will additionally remove trees to allow better visibility on middle, but not right now...

Grassfrog wrote:about the gg change, my idea was to split the gold even between the team.
just an example: if blue leaks 12 creeps with 5g bounty (total amount=60g),
than the total amount of 60g is split between the team (here 4 players),
so everyone gets 15 gold.
this way there is no gold wasted, none gets extremely fed (hence the balance is maintained) and
the leaker has a chance to get back into in the game.

i marked the "very easy" and "very hard" levels.
the link is at the end of this post.

ok, note taken. overall level difficulty can be racial-dependent, so at first changes will be slight

EDIT: "-gg mode" - well, i'm not quite fond of this mode anyway, but players are. so, once it was implemented, i'm pretty indifferent on how exactly it will function - meaning that i'll do whatever majority of players decide (provided that it doesn't INCREASE -gg gain)


Grassfrog wrote:i just remembered that someone asked if you need to "click" to start legiontd, just to clear things,
i noticed the same, but there is no need to click, the map "autoclicks" after 55-56 sec,
u can see it if u join a hostbot, watch your loadprogress on the loading screen and compare it with the load time the bot tells you, one time you click and one time u dont, it always works for me, if i do, my loadtime is ~6 sec, if i dont click its ~56.
(thats not really important, just nice to know)

hmmm, might be bot-thing? in LAN, where i can monitor this precisely, the slowest computer always dictate loading time and game starts as soon as it finishes. on the other hand, when debugging from editor, map indeed requires a click (and there is no auto-click)... will ask for help on this matter - luckily, i know exactly where to get it Smile

EDIT: browsing through forums, i've found that ingame campaign screen may be the cause. i'll see to make some "alpha loading screen" till tonight, so we'll see what happens then. oh, and that it could be fixed by bot - but no need for this if screen fixes it


Grassfrog wrote:but the description of brawlers armor may be a bit more important, it says its heavy, though he does not have armor at all.
the same thing with blood orc tier 1 and 2.
the tooltext of tier1 says that it has pierce dmg, while the "round in progress" period the unit has chaos dmg and
in the fight it has pierce dmg (i want to note that tier 1 atm is not worth buying it, maybe that changes if it has the chaos dmg?!?)

and the third upgrade of tier2, according to the tooltext, has heavy armor, but it has medium armor while fighting (while "round in progress" period [lets call it ripp from now on ~.~] it has heavy armor)

will fix the brawler description, on watcher ward i'm not sure - it was chaos, then pierce, none of which made it actually useful. orc tier1 is to be rebalanced, will see exactly how during tests. i'll check tier 2 tooltips, should be heavy, fortified, medium

EDIT: fixed blood orc tier2 building armours (you're surely notice that i'm using this as a checklist Smile

EDIT2: rebalanced orc tier1 for both versions (and fixed armour types and tooltips):
Pro:
Ward: DPS unchanged, cooldown and damage reduced - will have 3-hits-kill on levels 1 and 2 and not waste so much damage anymore
Serpent: increased dps 71 -> 83 - rather large buff, but unit may actually find its place in orc builds
Revo:
Ward: DPS unchanged, cooldown and damage increased - will have 1-hits-kill on levels 1 and 2 (hopefully will serve better)
Serpent: increased dps a bit, reduced hp, slight buff overall, may actually find its place in orc builds


Grassfrog wrote:the nature tier2 may need a slight nerf in attackspeed. now it is 0.3, atm this units dps is insane ~60 dps, the upgrade does 67,5 dps, so it somehow isnt even worth to up it, if u change it to 0,35 attack speed its ~51 dps, maybe lower the cost for the upgrade a bit (im not sure how much it is atm) and it should be fine.

its the same with cor. nature and mech, a really small nerf in their attackspeed seems necessary, nothing more than 0.5 - 0.8.
these range units are very strong early on (the value with these builder is way lower compared to others on the same lvl),

something else about nature builder. the tier 6 upgrade, tree of knowledge is supposed to do aoe dmg upon death, but the ability doesnt work. im not sure but i believe i experienced the same with corr. natures ulti upgrade.

i believe that the tier1 of elf could need a change too, the hp buff just doesn't feel right and if you compare it to tier2 its isnt really worth
to build it, neither as dd (because the upgrade is not a dd anymore, more a hybrid out of dd and tank), nor as good tank.

yes, all listed are overpowered. they were all notoriously bad in 1.6b, but this is... way too much. fixed tier 6 bug

yes, tier 1 had no real place in 1.6b either - except when really small variations in value could mean a lot. to my knowledge, no colt-related reliably strategy was ever found. sure, one or two in borderline cases, or perhaps as a stopper, upgrade maybe against boss, though all other alternatives were better... will take another shot at it and rebalance it again


Grassfrog wrote:3 more things about the chaos builder.
first, the value of tier1 doesnt show off with the correct numbers in the scoreboard (like zeus)
second, the tier3 buffs enemy units with bonus dmg and armor, if i understand the spell correct this shouldnt happen Smile
third, tier6 is ignored by enemy creeps until its the only tower left, it doesnt matter where i build them.

more or less, all chaotic casters tend sometimes to buff enemy. will change tooltips to indicate this

Grassfrog wrote:something about the upgrade of tier2 from mech, zeus (and storm trooper), it sometimes happens that these units attack the enemy
fighters on the other side (east/west side), this happens to the slots teal <-> yellow and purple <-> orange.

may have fixed this, along with some other bugs of same origin. and then, maybe it won't work... it's impossible to test such things playing alone, but it shouldn't be huge problem even if unattended (at least for some more time)

Grassfrog wrote:the upgrade of shadow tier2 (nightcrawler) sells for more gold then it should (140g).
and i believe the zombies that he spawns have to much hp, what about make them tank only 1 hit (1hp), the ability is still very strong, a dd with in build tank capabilitys !?

well, on this i do have considerable experience... they are indeed op, but being pierce only disables massing strategies (at least after lvl10). when nerfed, whole tier2 become useless and coupled with tier 4 being aura-only and tier5 << tier6 we get one of most boring, yet op race. shadow as a race i flawed by design, and reasonable balance, with all or most units playing some role, is very very hard to achieve. spent months on it during UE balancing...

Grassfrog wrote:another thing about shadow, now, that the tier 2 is buffed with high dmg and low cost, the upgrade of tier1 to fire archer is wasted,
it does less dps, has less hp and costs the same, roughly Wink
it would be sad if the unit will be forgotten...

hmmm, interesting point - it's not at all like that in Pro, where FA is easy to obtain early, and NC not so... still, spell damage part of the FA remains, maybe to change basic damage to magic and buff stats a bit to the similar of NC - could work well in Revo... have to think some more about it

Grassfrog wrote:i also noticed that with the current balance of levels , medium armor is not needed (just beast could make use outta it at lvl 16 Very Happy)
lvl 13 and 16 aside, which are balanced, imo, especially 8 and 12 are very easy and furthermore you need heavy armor for lvl 9.

theres is also an unbalance between the builder (like i already mentioned before), i can have full wisp and lumber at lvl 18 with demi human, mech, nature, and goblin, arctic.
i am trying to achieve this with every builder, but these are the only ones it works so far.

in contrast to these builders are beast, elf, chaos, element with whom i fail to achieve this, maybe i just didnt find the right strat yet,
maybe they are far weaker, i cant tell for sure, we will see....

i want to state that the map is very easy with some builder, while with others you have to be creative to find a way to beat some lvls !
im exited to see how a3 will be and how the balance will be in the next versions!

sure, level balancing is important, but i needed a feedback on this - and probably will play my own games soon... at start, i was careful not to make map too hard on beginners - but if maxing wisp is a common as early as level 18, then it is way too easy. luckily, making it harder is easy Smile

Grassfrog wrote:what do you think about taking the collision size away, or reduce it greatly (maybe by mode)?
it's a x3 only problem that the units tend to block themselves, run around doing nothing, sometimes for several seconds.
especially after lvl 20 this is a real problem for some builders.

cannot be changed by mode - if collision is taken off by triggers, units are still treated as obstacles and are avoiding each other. current creep collisions are greatly reduced (though they could be reduced more), but units *should* have it - good positioning is often a difference between experienced and new players. increased lane width allows "spacing" between units - should be enough, i think

EDIT - Revo level balance in general:

while i *said* balances for levels would be small (~5%, 10% top) - there was few... pitiful mistakes - namely some of levels (rightly marked as 'weak' had completely wrong values entered, sometimes up to 50% of values from the table, on which i based 'projected values'). this is fixed now.

also, since most magic damage levels were (intentionally) weakened, mainly because they were so hard in 2.7 and following... this caused medium armour to be weaker than it really should be, now should be less so

more or less, i followed your advice, and bosses are all improved - will see how they'll perform now...

this about concludes my editing for A4 and A8 (though screen is still missing, maybe few more things like colt) - but what was supposed to be half-day work turned into whole weekend of extremely irritating watching of slow game-loading (starting from editor, it takes quite a while to start a game, or save it, or anything basically)

BE AWARE THAT D3-DAY IS 15.05.2012., i'll be devoting about all of my free time for AT LEAST A WEEK to playing Smile - and, in perspective, for following 11 years, similar to what i did with diablo2 Smile

ofc, development is not over, bugfixes and balances will be still carried on etc, so continue to report them. but i NEED that week in order to keep sanity Smile

download links will be updated shortly...
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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  von_Oberstain on Mon May 14, 2012 8:25 am

forum rule: admins can double-post when they feel like it!

A4 released, download links updated
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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Tue May 15, 2012 5:34 am

lvl 6, 9 are slightly too strong atm (since a2, i've seen that u nerfed it, but they are still too strong), the other lvls in a4 are way more balanced than in a2!

i noticed that in pro version these lvls have much less hp, why do they have in revo more hp (lvl 9 nearly twice as much)?

it seems u buffed lvl 4 and 7?
at least lvl4 is too strong now, i cant tell for sure for lvl 7, i never reach a value more than 1150 cause of leaks at lvl6,
but it seems to be ok


Shadow

the tooltips of nightcrawler (atspd) and
fire archer (attype) are wrong


Elf

there is a trigger message left whenever the ability of upgraded tier3 activates


Marine

the sphere ability of tier4 last only 1-2 sec. instead of 12


Nature and Cor. nature

the tree of knowledge and his pendant does no aoe dmg on death (thought i mentioned it already, but cant find it, my bad, this bug exists since a2)


Blood Orc

there is delay before the aura of upgraded tier3 activates on friendly units (max. of 3 sec i believe), the delay is like 2 dmg-intervals that are wasted

tier5 has an ability in his tooltext called "burning hatred", but there is no such ability


Last edited by Grassfrog on Sat May 26, 2012 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  von_Oberstain on Wed May 23, 2012 4:56 pm

yup, levels are buffed/nerfed according to your recommendations, meaning 4 and 7 weren't touched... changes are generally low (+-5%), except for 12, which was bugged from the start (had some insanely low dps, mistakenly typed). yeah, some levels have much more hp, they aren't exactly x3, rather 2-2.5x times more in number, mainly to reduce lag (but also a collision)

i'll see into bugs reported soon, but now i'm rather devoting all my free time to diablo3 Smile

t4 elven debug-trigger is annoying, is removed in work version...

burning hatred is just 20hp/sec regeneration, if i remember correctly, so it is there. aura is very slow, and this is last custom aura i'll make, unless some other, more efficient method is found (this particular trigger is executed as soon as towers are converted to units, and it STILL has large delay Sad ) - on Pro, with same code, it is much more responsive...
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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Sat May 26, 2012 12:01 am

ahh, ok,

revo feels really challenging now. the nerfed units and the loss of lvls where u can pump workers makes it quite balanced.
i assume 5-7 worker and one lumber up till lvl 10 would be possible, if lvl 6 and 9 werent that extremely strong.

imo both lvls have to be further nerfed, they are way out of lvl scaling atm.
u dont have to make them as easy as in 2.7 (they were really 2 out of the three easiest lvls before first boss),
viewing from that point they needed a buff, but not that much of a buff they have in revo o.O

http://ifile.it/f0vpejq

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Grassfrog on Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:04 pm

he he he
after 2 weeks i played some ltd again - the pause was necessary, i was too obsessed with my "wrong" builds -

demi human: PASSED LVL 1 - 30 WITHOUT ANY LEAKS !!!!
lvl 29 was by far the strongest...

start of lvl 10: 5/1 economy
start of lvl 20: 19/3 economy
lvl 25: full economy

the bosses feel a bit too easy, although u cant beat them if u leaked more than 10 units the last 9 lvls before :/

concerning lvl 6 and 9... imo you can leave them as they are, or nerf them slightly
they are the strongest waves until lvl 14/15 but they are beatable, if you know how to

we could argue the same way about lvl 14 and 15. they are way stronger than the other lvls from 10 - 20, but they are beatable and they were this strong since i can imagine, i believe it just feels unusual to have lvl 6 and 9 the same way ~.~

time will show how i do with other builders...

further things:
i saw that the new unit of demi has only 1 food cost, i believe we need to compare them with tier 6, so it should at least have 2 food cost for the last upgrade - imo every, lets call them tier6a(lternative) should have an comparable food cost (i know there is the food cost of the units it upgrades out, this is just my thought though)

i hope i can motivate my mates to play revo again, else i have to play solo all the way Sad
whats the status of the hostsbot u mentioned some time ago?


E: RAGE!!!! its impossible, lvl 9, demi human is on an entirely different lvl, on lvl 6 i have 100g more as with any other builder cause of slavemastery, on lvl 9 its already 300g according to my value list,

lvl 9 is beatable, with an value of at least 1800, lvl 6 is no problem with a value of 1000g, if u have siege dmg, else you need at least 1100g

http://ifile.it/cwhd8p0

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Re: Balance and bug thread

Post  Kongk on Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:12 pm


First of all, i know this post is over a year old, but since nobody has answered it and nobody gets left behind, i will try to answer it briefly Wink



Legion Td revo Alpha 4 isn't not the newest version anymore. The newest version is Legion TD Revo Alpha 9 r3, but alot of the problems you mention Grassfrog are actually the very same as the ones we have been working at, anyways, Legion td Revo Alpha 9 R3 can be hosted on SaucerTest (testbot). It is not on autohost yet, but according to Saucer (Professional programmer, also working on this map), it will happen very soon..



Well yea, just wanted to mention it, if you will read it anyways Wink



Best Regards



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