Few gameplay suggestions

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Few gameplay suggestions

Post  EagleOwl on Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:37 am

1) Little rework of Hybrid builder and Ghost builder: Move Phantom from t3 to t4, Outcast from t4 to t5, because of their price. Price should be the same, but gameplay of Hybrid would be better(prices of Hybrid should be slightly reworked). (This should avoid situation, when on level 1 Hybrid get a lot of additional value, what allow him to build 3(risky) wisps on level 1(with Outcast). This situation is freewin). So new Ghost builder will one-to-one look like as the old one.

2) Delete rudiment in-game elements, like Wisps and Farms:
a) Wisps -> Would be reworked as upgrade to LPS (Lumber per second). Gameplay would be smother because of this. No need of trees/wisps
b) Farms -> Should be removed. Functionality should be moved to Town upgrade.
PS: This two elements have old history. Simplest way to get lumber -> add worker from standard game, simplest way to get food->build farm. So to this time wisps have ability to build farms!(Sic!).
Also this two elements slightly affect on timing.

3) Problem with leavers. As you know, leavers are pain in ass, you hate them and trying to neglect effects created by them. You effectively solve this problem on Arena, thank you, but there are a problem with hirelings. The smaller team can't deal enough big pressure to the bigger one. And vice-versa.
And I think, I've solution: When someone from bigger team hire creep, the creep has a chance (Number_of_Players_from_Smaller_Team)/(Number_of_Players_from_Bigger_Team) get to spawn area. But player get full income.
From another side: spawns from smaller team to bigger should be counting similar way:
k=(Number_of_Players_from_Bigger_Team)/(Number_of_Players_from_Smaller_Team), k- number of spawn creeps.
Example: game 2 vs 3. Someone from 2-player-team buy Kraken. k=3/2=1.5, what means there are should be one 100% kraken and 50% second one. Someone from 3-player-team buy Milita. k=2/3=0.67, what means there are should be one milita with probability 67%.
The second problem is King and his upgrades. Smaller team gets advantage, because of lower probably leaks. King has 3 attributes : health, attack , regeneration. And this attributes affect gameplay not mathematically orthogonally(what isn't good for balancing). The simplest way - decrease attack by 1/Number_of_leavers %. This will be near-good solve a problem. There are should be more balancing.

4) Hirelings price gaps IMO should be filled. There are two "big" gaps: 120-180 and 300-(340)-440, and two small: 200-240, 240-300. IMO it's good idea to add new tavern with more good creeps.

There was most desirable changes. I've a lot of smaller ones. Like Arena after level 30, etc.

PS Sorry 4 my BAD English

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Re: Few gameplay suggestions

Post  NERV on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:29 am

EagleOwl wrote:
1) Little rework of Hybrid builder and Ghost builder: Move Phantom from t3 to t4, Outcast from t4 to t5, because of their price. Price should be the same, but gameplay of Hybrid would be better(prices of Hybrid should be slightly reworked). (This should avoid situation, when on level 1 Hybrid get a lot of additional value, what allow him to build 3(risky) wisps on level 1(with Outcast). This situation is freewin). So new Ghost builder will one-to-one look like as the old one.
Your suggestion is reasonable, but that would reduce the possibilities of good rolls and slow down hybrid down, I like the idea of having good rolls in t3 and t4, because this makes hybrid early game so much more dynamic and aggressive.
(i believe tier 5 is a bad bet for level 1, since 'cuz with smaller and lucrative rolls you can get above 300 value and have a wisp at lvl1, but then again, its luck based)

EagleOwl wrote:
2) Delete rudiment in-game elements, like Wisps and Farms:
a) Wisps -> Would be reworked as upgrade to LPS (Lumber per second). Gameplay would be smother because of this. No need of trees/wisps
b) Farms -> Should be removed. Functionality should be moved to Town upgrade.
PS: This two elements have old history. Simplest way to get lumber -> add worker from standard game, simplest way to get food->build farm. So to this time wisps have ability to build farms!(Sic!).
Also this two elements slightly affect on timing.

By removing the wisps, huanak would have to re-design to map to get rid of the trees, which mean a lot of work and idk, but I find it hard to happen. Also I like the possibility of building farms lvl1(6secs) when I don't have much time left in the round and the possibility of building a new farm instead of upgrading to High Elven farm. As you can see, this model used by Legion maps gives space to a lot of different tactics that apply in different occasions. And the wisps in legion Mega are almost lagless, since they stand still most of the game. So I don't see any reason for a change that will benefit almost only the look of the map.

EagleOwl wrote:
3) Problem with leavers. As you know, leavers are pain in ass, you hate them and trying to neglect effects created by them. You effectively solve this problem on Arena, thank you, but there are a problem with hirelings. The smaller team can't deal enough big pressure to the bigger one. And vice-versa.
And I think, I've solution: When someone from bigger team hire creep, the creep has a chance (Number_of_Players_from_Smaller_Team)/(Number_of_Players_from_Bigger_Team) get to spawn area. But player get full income.
From another side: spawns from smaller team to bigger should be counting similar way:
k=(Number_of_Players_from_Bigger_Team)/(Number_of_Players_from_Smaller_Team), k- number of spawn creeps.
Example: game 2 vs 3. Someone from 2-player-team buy Kraken. k=3/2=1.5, what means there are should be one 100% kraken and 50% second one. Someone from 3-player-team buy Milita. k=2/3=0.67, what means there are should be one milita with probability 67%.
The second problem is King and his upgrades. Smaller team gets advantage, because of lower probably leaks. King has 3 attributes : health, attack , regeneration. And this attributes affect gameplay not mathematically orthogonally(what isn't good for balancing). The simplest way - decrease attack by 1/Number_of_leavers %. This will be near-good solve a problem. There are should be more balancing.
This is interesting, But only HuanAk can say what he thinks of this.
Anyway, the problem with 3x2/4x3 games can also the solved with value. Yep. With high value you can deal with almost anything they send to you. I've seen a lot of leavers, and I can say that the side with higher value will often win. IMO the only really bad thing is when you got 4x2 or 3x1 games.
The main problem is when people save wood and send all in one round. This can easily screw your team, but you can also survive and get feeded from their sends. -ns will solve this.

EagleOwl wrote:
4) Hirelings price gaps IMO should be filled. There are two "big" gaps: 120-180 and 300-(340)-440, and two small: 200-240, 240-300. IMO it's good idea to add new tavern with more good creeps.
Huanak once told me, that he cannot add too many useful summons, because game would end too early.
But more and new summons would be nice, if you have any suggestion regarding names and models, i'm sure huanak would like to read.
(not sure where he is now)

EagleOwl wrote:
Like Arena after level 30, etc.

Arena level 20 already gets so crowed that's almost sure win of team with less collision size units, the arena with 80k versus 80k value would be terrifying for the bigger team.
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Re: Few gameplay suggestions

Post  EagleOwl on Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:54 am

NERV wrote:Your suggestion is reasonable, but that would reduce the possibilities of good rolls and slow down hybrid down, I like the idea of having good rolls in t3 and t4, because this makes hybrid early game so much more dynamic and aggressive.
(i believe tier 5 is a bad bet for level 1, since 'cuz with smaller and lucrative rolls you can get above 300 value and have a wisp at lvl1, but then again, its luck based)
You are right, but not fully. If Outcast(Ghost builder) will be moved to another tier, the price of tier 4 would be decreased. Yes, dispersion will be reduced as in tier 4 as in tier 5. But random effect will have power yet. I really don't like situation, when someone on level 1 get Outcast and Phantom. Yes, probability of this situation is small, but not small enough. I REALLY hate Outcast on level 1 Twisted Evil.

NERV wrote:By removing the wisps, huanak would have to re-design to map to get rid of the trees, which mean a lot of work and idk, but I find it hard to happen.
IMO not so much code will be written, because in another projects (based on eGze map) this was done. But that projects I don't like as this one. Another opinion about gameplay: in early/mid game food production is detail, for which you should watch (and do some tiny math). But in the late game, as you wrote, you can build another farm, what will help you easier get through obstacles of gameplay.

NERV wrote:The main problem is when people save wood and send all in one round.
My scheme was all about this(for 4vs2 or 3vs1). In normal games you can see, what your opponents do, and resist from that. But only in normal games.

NERV wrote:Arena level 20 already gets so crowed that's almost sure win of team with less collision size units, the arena with 80k versus 80k value would be terrifying for the bigger team.
This suggestion was about FUN, not competative element. Like: "whose army is BETTER". No bonuses for it. Winner gets moral advantage Very Happy

NERV wrote:Huanak once told me, that he cannot add too many useful summons, because game would end too early.
I didn't say IMBA units. I'll think about them.

Another slight suggestion about creeps: Warrior(60 lumber/2 income) has very bad ratio price/effectiveness. IMO it will have price, like 45-50 lumber/2 income or 65-70 lumber/3 income. (This creep has maximum effectiveness on levels 1-2, but it's prise is awful for this levels).

I'll write two or three really interesting suggestions tomorrow (friendly summons, PvP element, another builder).

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Re: Few gameplay suggestions

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