Most skilled players.

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Most skilled players.

Post  sunderkeenin on Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:03 pm

Since we have a "famous" players thread I decided that I would make this thread as it is a much better topic. Personally probably the most "skilled" player I've seen is HighestIncome as he has shown through the forums and the game I've played with him myself.

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Re: Most skilled players.

Post  Unholy_Rave on Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:52 am

It depends on luck a bit maybe, but y i agree, HighestIncome is probably World's n1... Actually more like a legend than a player. You should maybe exclude HI from this post, and ask for some 'normal' skilled players that are better than average.

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Re: Most skilled players.

Post  HighestIncome on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:35 am

@Sunderkeenin

Nortan is good  Razz 


@Unholy_Rave 

Exclude me Sad ?
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Re: Most skilled players.

Post  sunderkeenin on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:08 pm

HighestIncome wrote:@Sunderkeenin

Nortan is good  Razz 


@Unholy_Rave 

Exclude me Sad ?
I know Nortan is good. I've played more games with him than I've played with you.

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Re: Most skilled players.

Post  Nortan on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:56 pm

There are a lot of good players and seeing as how at the core this game is a tower defense game that can be subject to rng it's hard to just pick one person as "most skilled". I could name off a handful of players who's ability to play I respect and even more that I feel are knowledgeable/good at legion, but I'm not going to rank them or pick one and say "this guy is the best or most skilled". IMO to do so would be rude as it discredits players of similar caliber and, as I was saying, the skill cap of this game isn't that clean cut. Even the best players make a mistake, forget something important, or simply get unlucky and don't perform to the expectations of those that know them. One thing I am confident of is that there are a lot of "skilled" legion players out there that I have yet to play with.

If the goal here is to just pick a different person of "high skill" than others then I'm in! I'll go with kreutertee since no one picked them yet. IDK if it counts since they are traveling and haven't played in months, but they have a lot of experience, they helped found UCbot and to this day are part of the bots management, and I trust them to know how to effectively play just about anything. We haven't played together too much yet but I'll agree that highestincome is very good at this game. I don't feel that anyone should be labeled legendary when it comes to skill in legion as it implies that other players could not hope to obtain the same level of play as them and I just don't feel that is true. With enough experience, practice, and effort (you really have to want to get better) I believe that everyone can achieve the same level of play for this particular game.

I believe part of it is that players lack motivation to improve but also that players simply have the wrong impression of how they should aim to play, and haven't had the guidance of more knowledgable players who learn from experience as well as people they've played with up to that point. For new players it's a pretty steep climb to learn everything. There isn't that much information out there about the game for beginners and that's why highestincome's recent strategical guide will be really help for any of them that stumble upon it. The best way to learn QUICKLY is to be taught by other players. Even so you will fail multiple times along the way as you strive to get better.

Oh here is a good quote from the recent superman movie that will apply to new players learning from experienced players "They will race behind you. They will stumble; they will fall. But, in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."


Last edited by Nortan on Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Re: Most skilled players.

Post  HighestIncome on Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:58 pm

@Nortan

"With enough experience, practice, and effort (you really have to want to get better) I believe that everyone can achieve the same level of play for this particular game."

Well, i must disagree here, i think this is just not true. There are many reasons why this is not true, and i will add them here: 

1) It is not possible for all people to think in a same way, there are many differences in culture, education and so on...

2) Natural IQ is also important here, smarter people are generally better in games, they make wiser decisions, they can see more. 

3) Mathematics is really important for Legion Mega, combinatorics specially (for hybrid for example). And we know that many many have problems with Maths. 





Although you expect complicated definition for skilled player (in my opinion), it is rather simple: 6500+ values and 700-750+ incomes on 2nd Arena Fight, that is what you need to be marked as 'High Skilled' from me (of course you have to be able to do that in almost every game). Do i make that score in every game? No, but in 90% maybe even 95% of my games (because of RNG of course). Everything that goes with it is in a fact that game reached level 21 Smile
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Re: Most skilled players.

Post  Unholy_Rave on Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:46 pm

Yea i thought this post will be better if we don't get 20 comments like "HI is the best".  It is obvious and i mean great but let's mention other skilled players, although they are maybe not skilled as you are.  

Your definition is quite good, but then i think there is no player that you would mark as "High Skilled" because i've never seen even close score to that and i played mega number of games.


Highestincome wrote:Everything that goes with it is in a fact that game reached level 21 Smile


I liked this.

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Re: Most skilled players.

Post  Nortan on Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:42 am

HighestIncome wrote:@Nortan

"With enough experience, practice, and effort (you really have to want to get better) I believe that everyone can achieve the same level of play for this particular game."

Well, i must disagree here, i think this is just not true. There are many reasons why this is not true, and i will add them here: 

1) It is not possible for all people to think in a same way, there are many differences in culture, education and so on...

2) Natural IQ is also important here, smarter people are generally better in games, they make wiser decisions, they can see more. 

3) Mathematics is really important for Legion Mega, combinatorics specially (for hybrid for example). And we know that many many have problems with Maths. 





Although you expect complicated definition for skilled player (in my opinion), it is rather simple: 6500+ values and 700-750+ incomes on 2nd Arena Fight, that is what you need to be marked as 'High Skilled' from me (of course you have to be able to do that in almost every game). Do i make that score in every game? No, but in 90% maybe even 95% of my games (because of RNG of course). Everything that goes with it is in a fact that game reached level 21 Smile

  We are all human beings and I'm confident that the large majority of us are mentally capable of grasping even the most intricate details of this tower defense game if we put the effort and time into it. You just need to be able to memorize certain things, and become experienced with how it all works. I don't believe that the mathematical/IQ requirements are very high.

I like to assume at least a basic mathematical ability from players. I've met some rather mathematically challenged people that would struggle with this game. Even then they have the potential to succeed with enough determination (unless they are truly suffering from some form of disability Sad ), however, this type of game probably wouldn't interest them and they probably wouldn't try that hard.

"same level of play" doesn't necessarily correlate with "think in a same way" however two players at the "same level of play" may "think in a same way" simply because they are at the "same level of play" and with the units they have and the goals they set and adjust as they play they may "think in the same way" from a purely game play perspective. I only half said that to be confusing. We don't all play the exact same way to achieve similar results but it's likely that we will end up playing similarly to get similar results. It's a tower defense game that doesn't have an overwhelming amount of strategy involved so you often end up playing your units and building your income in a manner close to that of someone just as good at the game as you are. These are just my opinions though. It may not always be bad to play in a way that is not optimal for yourself. Example: We can't all necessarily run 2500 - 3000 value for lvl 17 just to get 7/15 before lvl 17 because then the other team sends hard sends and even with a maxed king and 4 heals you could still lose the game there. So you may have a player or two purposely delay their income a little to hold their wave better just in case you would lose there otherwise. Perhaps I'm just overcautious about that one level but I believe it's something that should be taken into consideration when your whole team is pushing income heavily for these 700 - 750 second arena goals.

WHY did I stay up this late... now I have to sleep in again and then go straight to work Crying or Very sad
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Re: Most skilled players.

Post  HighestIncome on Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:36 am

I will say it simple again, you are a bit confusing, Nortan (i understood what u wanted to say tho): Everyone can be good at this game, but not skilled. It's two different things. Good player can play good with towers and builds he learned to play with. Skilled player can play good with everything he is given, in every new situation (for example hybrid combo). That is why we generally don't have much good Hybrid players and we have dozen of 'good' Prophet players. Simple, they learned how to build with some towers and they repeat what they've learned. To be skilled it requires: High IQ, time, effort, experience (which comes with time) and mathematical mind. 


I will give example what im sure that people with non-mathematical mind won't be able to do (this was my idea): When my mates and me have heals on level 20 (which rarely happens, but still happens sometimes) and if we leak 2+ Dragon Turtles we always bug King (so he doesn't attack) and we waste 2 or even 3 heals just for that bugging time. There is maybe extreme thought process behind that which would sound like: "Ok i have 850 income, why wouldn't i make even more with that delay, because that are last creeps that will reach my King". I am SURE that no one else did that before. 


I am going to vacation today, so i will be off in next 10 days. 
Best Regards, HI
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Re: Most skilled players.

Post  sunderkeenin on Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:47 am

About the hybrid RNG thing I have to say I do better with hybrid in general than I do with normal races except for the broken income races.(orc and paladin.)

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Re: Most skilled players.

Post  Nortan on Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:04 pm

HighestIncome wrote:I will say it simple again, you are a bit confusing, Nortan (i understood what u wanted to say tho): Everyone can be good at this game, but not skilled. It's two different things. Good player can play good with towers and builds he learned to play with. Skilled player can play good with everything he is given, in every new situation (for example hybrid combo). That is why we generally don't have much good Hybrid players and we have dozen of 'good' Prophet players. Simple, they learned how to build with some towers and they repeat what they've learned. To be skilled it requires: High IQ, time, effort, experience (which comes with time) and mathematical mind. 


I will give example what im sure that people with non-mathematical mind won't be able to do (this was my idea): When my mates and me have heals on level 20 (which rarely happens, but still happens sometimes) and if we leak 2+ Dragon Turtles we always bug King (so he doesn't attack) and we waste 2 or even 3 heals just for that bugging time. There is maybe extreme thought process behind that which would sound like: "Ok i have 850 income, why wouldn't i make even more with that delay, because that are last creeps that will reach my King". I am SURE that no one else did that before. 


I am going to vacation today, so i will be off in next 10 days. 
Best Regards, HI

 Bugging to king isn't anything new. Most people that know about it just don't because it's rude to the other people in the game that are forced to wait and watch. Some people don't care but others are offended by such actions. Unless I'm playing with someone that is into that type of thing I don't do it and just let the game precede as it normally should. Theoretically you could bug the king out for an extremely long amount of time once you are at 7/15 until your hand cramps to get to and end income of like 2k and value of 30k I guess. You'll be lucky if everyone waits around though assuming they aren't there to do this on purpose. I get why you would use the heals to increase your income.

It's not an extreme thought process by any means but players might not want to play in those games. If you aren't there with friends they might just get pissed and kick you out of the game (or at least try). The point is it can upset other players and you should take into consideration that every game consists of 8 people and some of them just want the game to precede without king bugging. The main reason that that kind of strategy works well is that the other team is very unlikely to have incomed as intensely as you do and thus the likelihood of them leaking onto the king first and you not needing heals to outlast them is rather high. It is possible that has not been done before since almost everyone I know would save the heal for lvl 31 in case you leaked onto your king when the other team did as well (not to mention that most people I play with do not indulge in king bugging unless they are purposely trying to end the game early). If you are playing against a team of equal caliber (who are gaining the same benefit from the income inflation but not wasting their own heals) you'd probably want to hold onto any heal you can for the very end but I assume your opponents don't income as well and you probably aren't even interested in whether you win or lose the game but just how much you can inflate your income/value. Although it's a risk/reward strategy as are many moves in this game, it's not a large one since usually one side leaks onto the king long enough that heals won't necessarily mean the difference between winning and losing. I'd be lying though if I said that heals have not been the difference between a win and a loss. Sometimes I win games with only 200 or less hitpoints left on our king and that with using heals Very Happy. It's always fun when you think you've lost but pull off a win by the tiniest of margins (having stomp makes a big difference as well)

I personally like to play games out normally without bugging the king to inflate income. I will use antistuck to my advantage as long as I'm not in a clan game which can still cause frustration for other players. Inflating my income isn't as important to me as just playing the game and as a courtesy to others I rarely test the waters with whose okay with bugging the king and whose not. I play a lot of random games though and if I'm playing with you, highestincome, or other players that like to do that stuff then I will participate(I'm okay with it. I just get concerned with whether other people in the game are not okay with it).
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