any questions about lumber and income

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any questions about lumber and income

Post  xphaart on Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:44 pm

hi pple from a new guy,

forgive me my bad englisch

i dont understand this game. (:
maybe read  someone this and can explain me some things.

Ive readed HI's book and income guide.

some builds  dont work: for example the yggdrasill ( tree of knowledge). i havent enough gold to buy a second yggdrasil in round 8. whatever...

when i play archer build or another value towers my lumber upgrades are often 7/5 at lvl 10 but then i have big problems to reach the rec value for lvl 17+.  I've got  regular some pudges, furbs, kraken or some warlocks and they crush my towers.

ive played ~100 games and watch some replays. wtf  got some pple 7/2 at lvl 7 and they dont leak especially with furbolg.? :/

never reached this income:
ilvl 12: 180-200 incomes
lvl 17: 380-420 incomes
lvl 21: 700-750 incomes

uses they any glitches or abuse antistuck ? ive read antistuck was fixed in 3.5 B4.

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  missgreen on Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:47 pm

Hello indeed, I may not be the best player (actually I'm really bad at Legion), but I spent some time researching HI's work and most importantly, speaking with HI himself as a journalist, what I am in private life. I even wanted to interview him, but he refused Smile  

What is important and may help you that HI said is next: "People underestimate time in games". As that may may not be so obvious what he wanted to say, I will try to explain it a bit. He said that it's just a coincidence that there are not 'subsecond builds'. What he meant here is that some builds may rely on your reaction (for example spending your wood for 1 gold) that should be done in less than a second. That may actually be your 'yggdrasil' problem, you didn't spend your full wood and you miss 1 gold that ruins the whole game, for example.  

The rec values that you mention are not quite good and often leads new players in an 'overbuilds'. 

Also, important thing is a placement that is as HI himself said 'mastering the game', which means it's hardest to understand. It is possible to have 7/2 on lvl 7 and still not leak, if you know what are you doing and if you are lucky with your tower combination. 


xpxaart wrote:never reached this income:
ilvl 12: 180-200 incomes 
lvl 17: 380-420 incomes
lvl 21: 700-750 incomes 

Well, it's HI Very Happy  That is what made him what he is (for me at least), legion legend. Guess what, if he didn't write that, you would probably think that it's impossible. I would also. He said "it's possible, but not everyone can do it, I can only show how I do it". It's a pity that he is inactive so he can't explain this better than me.

I wish you good luck with learning this game, green.

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  BlackJohnny on Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:56 am

Hello

I'm very glad that people who are just starting are using this forum and HI's book as a reference, it's a great place to start. Now, let's have at it. c:

First of all, let me say that you're going on the right path, learning standard builds is about one of the first things a new player has to learn (before trying weird prophet build or hybrid  Smile ). 
Honestly, I'm a bit surprised you're having trouble with the Tree of Knowledge build since it' pretty solid. You're supposed to have 7/2 by level 7 with maybe a few units leaked on that wave (it pays off, of course). There's really only one thing crucial in this build and it's the one unit that you're gonna put behind your first yggdrasil. What you need to do is look at what you have and determine what'll get you trough levels 2 and 3 with the least possible value at the given circumstance. For example, if you build infantry/sentry on level 2 and upgrade them for level 3, that will leave you with 2 wisps until level 5 starts. On the other hand, if you have a captain, you'll have 4 wisps (a yggdrasil and one captain clear lvl 3 as well). Secondly and more crucial is the situation where you've made a poor decision on these levels and you leaked (there goes at least one wisp, your 7/2 and ofc, income). As for the second yggdrasil on 8, the best thing you can do is leave about 100 gold before level 7 starts, you'll have enough (a simple answer after a lot of text, sorry  Razz ).

This is all assuming you've carefully read and experimented with the build. Generally, you have to have in mind that income is the most important thing in this game. Well, that's not completely true, team play is the most important thing, but income is the most important thing taken in a sense as something you bring in this game as an individual. And no, you don't have to have the recommended value, just enough to get you trough (no leak is too big if it doesn't kill you, but of course, don't overdo it). As a bonus to this particular build, there are very little variables. Your leaks don't depend on the send that much, since you're pretty much counting on Knowledge's forbidden fruit, and it won't hurt your team since your leaks will be few in number and be very damaged. 

Anyways, best of luck to you and have fun with this game Very Happy 

Johnny
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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  xphaart on Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:43 pm

hi guys,

little update... the yggdrasil build works great after more attempts. i'm so happy  bounce 

iit's the first time i got 7/15 with nature before lvl 23. thx a lot

so bye i must play Razz

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  missgreen on Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:02 pm

BlackJohnny you are HI's friend right? 

Can you tell us what is going on with HI?

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  xphaart on Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:01 pm

hello guys,

wouldnt start a new thread. i have another question: what is version 3.48. cant find a changelog. whats the difference to 3.41 or 3.5 b4

thx u

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  BlackJohnny on Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:03 am

@xphaart
3.48 is an unofficial or 'fake' version. The difference is that level 3 is significantly nerfed (hp lowered from 63 to 52 and lowered DPS) which makes early game a lot easier. Level 17 is nerfed too (also lower hp) and the king has decreased attack speed, which makes it quite hard to survive level 20 sometimes. Anyhow, the changes made are bad and the version has failed in my opinion. For now, 3.41 is the best and most balanced one. 

@missgreen
Well, he's playing DotA 2. He's getting back to the pro scene I think. There's really not much I can say about it, since I don't play DotA and have never really been that interested in his work there. All I can say that he's putting heavy effort into it and it's paying off. He has been inactive here as well (because if he were here, he wouldn't have resisted to help the guy making this topic, especially when he's making his book a reference) and I'm just trying to fill in for him in the lack of his philanthropy.  Smile
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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  missgreen on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:52 am

Well, I am still interested in his work. I would just like to know more, but he appears to be offline everywhere :/

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  Nejha on Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:48 am

Hi xphaart.
I had the same problems as you with seeing people with high income and only few leak and then yourself having trouble with low income and the levels. 
My tip for you is just to hang on and try something new all time until u find something that works. (try pick some class that you know is good and easy to learn)

And about the HI Book i tried some of the tactics and it worked fine for me. I guess its just maybe to complicated for new players, those build he makes can be a bit fustrating and hard to understand.

Best regards 
Nejha

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  Unholy_Rave on Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:55 am

Well, you nerds HI explained you everything when and what to do and you are still having problems? How can people be so stupid and lazy...

@BlackJohnny did you learn HI how to play Legion?


He said in his book that he learned a lot from you and 'BobBrother'? And who is BobBrother? Never seen him playing?


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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  BlackJohnny on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:09 am

@ Unholy_Rave
I really don't appreciate your attitude. Sure, HI did draw everything 'to a T' in his guide, but that's not a reason to be a jerk to people just starting out and wanting to learn, specially when they haven't given you any reason to act like it.
And no, HI got me into this game and initially taught me a LOT. But yeah, when I got into it and advanced he probably had a chance to learn something from me, considering that we played together all the time. As for BobBrother, he was a mate that used to play with us a lot as well.
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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  Unholy_Rave on Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:15 pm

@BlackJohnny

I don't think I'm being a jerk since people are having exactly explained builds from level to level and still they somehow manage to fail with it.  

Since you say that you are advanced and so, can you continue HI's work? At least for replays? Coz I remember HI said for you to be the best single player? 


I play Legion very well, but still I was always amazed by those replays HI uploaded, so if you can bring similar content I would be very thankful.

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  BlackJohnny on Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:50 pm

@ missgreen
I'm sorry that I can't be of any help there. 

@Unholy_Rave
Let's make an analogy. Would I be a jerk if i referred to name-calling when someone can't grasp something that's clearly written in a book. Of course I would, you are no exception. In any case, the ToK build in HI's book isn't even that detailed, because it assumes that you've got the nature builder, and excludes prophet, which is the most played builder (and there are some variables there). Even so, I don't even agree with his Knowledge build for nature anyway. 
As for his statement, he said that I'm the best player he has seen. Although he's somewhat credible, he could be very wrong on that one. 
Legion is a closed chapter for now, I don't think there's anything more to be done in addition to what he did. I don't even have any replays to begin with, but I do appear in some of his, I think. The most honest thing I can offer you (even though I don't play much anymore) is that we play a couple of games together.
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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  Unholy_Rave on Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:18 am

@BlackJohnny

Well, we could. 


Sorry if I was annoying or something, but I still want that excitement when I come to forum, which is gone, nobody posting anything good here anymore. I understand what you say that HI did basically everything and anything he wanted and imagined, and that there is not much left (if anything) to be done. And the question remains, how the fuck did he do all of this? Smile 
 
Sad story that he abandoned the game, but well, shit happens.

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  BlackJohnny on Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:54 am

All things must come to an end, I guess. There won't be mush excitement, I'm afraid. Maybe the new version will bring a new light to the LTD community. I won't spam this topic anymore. Inbox might be better for further discussion.
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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  Velen on Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:08 am

BlackJohnny wrote:Although he's somewhat credible, he could be very wrong on that one. 


Did you really say that HI is 'somewhat' credible? Shocked

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  sunderkeenin on Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:05 am

Velen wrote:
BlackJohnny wrote:Although he's somewhat credible, he could be very wrong on that one. 


Did you really say that HI is 'somewhat' credible? Shocked
He did. Problem?

Have you played with HI? He's a fantastic incomer and builds hard for late-game, but his teammates have to sacrifice a lot to get him there...
He's semi-credible because he incomes to near suicidal levels without much of a safer contingency plan for higher level play. He's a pubstar through and through. Cool guy though, and he's basically defined the "incomer" position in Mega, but it's just not tournament safe.

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  Velen on Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:22 am

If he was ready to give his account if he loses, in his "2v2 challenge", I don't think that he didn't have a relatively 'safe' plan. I watched replays and his opponents got significantly more lucky, still he won. No big difference between that and tournament.

Also in his replays, mostly from UC bot, I didn't  see his teammates suffering much.

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  sunderkeenin on Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:58 pm

Velen wrote:If he was ready to give his account if he loses, in his "2v2 challenge", I don't think that he didn't have a relatively 'safe' plan. I watched replays and his opponents got significantly more lucky, still he won. No big difference between that and tournament.

Also in his replays, mostly from UC bot, I didn't  see his teammates suffering much.
You haven't see him in some of the Clan UC group games. UC Korea the one time I was in there with them(we were against kreuter, I think soul, and a couple others) was so angry about how much HI leaked(even though I was sacrificing a good bit of my income to build enough to keep us alive against SMART sends) and it was nearly justified. We nearly lost on almost every major death wave until 20 because of it, but we did come back enough to win at 31. It was a while back, but still... It's a perfect example of this being an issue in a 4v4 scenario, and its huge payoff if it works past the risk.
He(UC Korea) quit being on our team after that game because of it.


Last edited by sunderkeenin on Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:25 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : clarification)

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  Velen on Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:05 pm



Sunderkeenin wrote:Personally probably the most "skilled" player I've seen is HighestIncome as he has shown through the forums and the game I've played with him myself.


And what do you do when it comes to lvl 20+, if he is in opposite team? ^^

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  sunderkeenin on Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:24 pm

Velen wrote:

Sunderkeenin wrote:Personally probably the most "skilled" player I've seen is HighestIncome as he has shown through the forums and the game I've played with him myself.


And what do you do when it comes to lvl 20+, if he is in opposite team? ^^

Either I lose or he would be out of practice enough for a near tie/win, or his teammates could drag him down due to low income because of handling high leaks. He is incredibly skilled as an incomer(hence the quotes), but not as a team player. His team needs to know how to handle him, or self destruction becomes imminent.

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  Velen on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:39 am

Hold on+let him do his thing=win the game? Smile

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  sunderkeenin on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:42 am

Velen wrote:Hold on+let him do his thing=win the game? Smile
Not really. Actively compensate for his leaks until late-game while walking a fine line of how much income you sacrifice for how much value(which is extremely easy to cross to either wrong side of) and succeed to win, or just outright lose.

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  Velen on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:03 pm

@sunderkeenin

I really can't see anything of that what you are talking about in his replays. All I can see is small or average leaks with unreal income Smile

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

Post  sunderkeenin on Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:21 am

Velen wrote:@sunderkeenin

I really can't see anything of that what you are talking about in his replays. All I can see is small or average leaks with unreal income Smile
That's because for his optimal income replays he's generally playing against bad players who send equally badly.(for inducing leaks)

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Re: any questions about lumber and income

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