Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NoHeal4u on Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:34 am

Can you increase food upkeep above 200? 250 should be fine. Yesterday I've played a bit imbalanced cross(my mistake) so we ended up with possible 31k/16k cross, but because food limit  i had to sell cheaper units and build T6 units. Ended up with unspent 2k and around 27.5 K value which was quite frustrating.

Sadly this isn't the first time Ive encountered this. I had similar situation while playing cross earlier, and i had this situation twice while playing solo.



We are testing cross builds a lot on B11 version. I'm not familiar with path finding changes in B12 but it doesn't matter, ill just speak from my experience in b11 maybe it can help..

In B11 units get stuck on level 20 quite often and they don't return to the king. But, although uncomfortable this is almost always a good thing since they get ported into the middle when turtles are already hitting the king(i guess its the auto antistuck), therefore turtles are caught in crossfire and easily dispatched.

Also, Hell raisers aren't going back to the teleport zone after wave is finished, they just end up scattered all around the map(this is happening almost always in mid game).

Level 10 is also making problems from time to time, Drenai chieftains are pulling massive aggro and they pull both sides of cross from time to time(which is sometimes a good thing ).

Also, i must share one quite funny moment. I was playing gainer and i had a massive overbuild consisted of Hell raisers. They went back to catch my partners leaks and they have easily dispatched all of them, except one nasty fellow, The Kraken. There it was,great battle between the kraken and more than 10 hellraisers. I had a feeling that it lasted for eternity, but in the end heroic kraken obviously prevailed Very Happy It was great for income, happening from time to time, prolonging levels Very Happy

P.S.

What are your thoughts about the eggs upgrade? You have changed the spider which was a fantastic thing. Can we expect the same treatment for the egg since flying levels are rare and upgrading egg is almost a taboo.  The egg(low dps,early game mini tank) -> Super egg(low dps,mid game mini tank) seems like a logical development tree from my perspective(-ph play only).
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  vladimir3388 on Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:18 pm

NoReply4u Very Happy

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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  Kongk on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:33 am

Hell Guys Smile

HighestIncome is right that it is unknown when the next Legion TD Mega beta is ready. IT WILL COME THOUGH! We currently have to finish another legion related thing before we can get the new Mega beta out.. Alot of work has already been put into b12, so it wont take much more work before it will be ready.. All we need is some time to finish the other thing, and then things will go more "smooth" in the future Smile

I don't have much time here, so i will be brief.

Food Upkeep, sounds possible.. Wont be in b12 though, but perhaps b13.. Smile

Lvl 20 bug is an old bug that sometimes happens when cross-building.. I must admit that i'm actually not sure if the possibility of crossbuild was intended of HuanAK or if it's a bug.. Crossbuild is not possible in other Legion versions.. All i can say is that we understand alot of people think crossbuilds are a fun part of the game, so we won't mess with crossbuilds.. Crossbuild will stay, in other words.. BUT, we wont spend much time (if any at all) polishing it or balancing it.. So we wont spend much time fixing any rare crossbuild-related bugs..

That being said, there are some pathing bugs that need to be fixed.. When the pathing bugs have been fixed, some crossbuild-connected bugs may disappear as well.. Something tells me they are connected, somehow..

About egg.. It is actually a very good idea that has already been done in other legion versions.. I can't promise it will happen in Mega too, but we will definately consider it Wink

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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  Nortan on Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:28 am

I must admit that i'm actually not sure if the possibility of crossbuild was intended of HuanAK or if it's a bug.. Crossbuild is not possible in other Legion versions.. All i can say is that we understand alot of people think crossbuilds are a fun part of the game, so we won't mess with crossbuilds.. Crossbuild will stay, in other words.. BUT, we wont spend much time (if any at all) polishing it or balancing it.. So we wont spend much time fixing any rare crossbuild-related bugs..

I'm really not supportive of cross building gameplay. It seems too easy and way too effective and reminds me heavily of mercenary. It just takes a bit more effort then with merc cause it's not the exact same thing over and over. With good splash units like dragons, archers, meatwagons, ToK, ect. I've seen some ridiculous incoming with very little or no risk involved. It's far more effective then simple middle building and imo more effective then standard lane building. You can pull off cross even without units strong/OP splash units it's just not quite as easy, but once you get around difficult levels for those units there's not much challenge and I've seen mediocre units succeed with cross just fine.

Lately, it's become really popular among experienced players (including UC clan members) because of how well it works and how easily it can pulled off. I'm not really interested in it as I was never interested in mid builder to begin with (so cramped/awkward and solo play is more comfortable/predictable) and if i get involved with it I feel that I'm actually abusing something that is already somewhat broken just as mercenary was broken. It might be 'fun' but that's not the same as being balanced or good for the game as a whole. Mercenary was fun for lots of people but that's cause it was easy and if you knew how to use it you could get great results easily and have 24k+ values each game. Saving 1500+ gold to end games early on 14, 17, or 20 is fun for a lot of people but it's not necessarily good for the game. I have mixed feelings (I used to be completely against save cause it's annoying incoming well just to get a demon AND a kraken on 17 cause the other team went full save) on save though with how easy the current version feels and although it's not used often at least there is an option to not use -ns. If the main builder makes a mistake you CAN fail at cross but if you know what to do then as I said in the beginning it's too easy and too effective (imo). In part those OP splash units and stuff like slow auras are what makes it so strong it seems broken but as I said even mediocre nonsplash units work in cross rather well.

So personally I've found cross builders to be kind of irritating and imbalanced/unfair BUT I wouldn't say that it's so good that it ruins the game or has to be removed. I wish it was just not quite as strong as it currently is or carried some kind of noticeable disadvantage opposed to standard building like how normal middle builders are forced to deal with that +2 armor on almost everything and it's easier with cross to deal with less at once due to positioning then with standard mid with lane delay since you will engage the incoming wave faster and have it nearly dead before the second wave even gets to you in cross. Maybe if there was a no cross build set up standard and you had to purposely leave it out of the mode for people to use it then it could be more of a specific type of game mode to play, however, I don't see an issue with sharing/trading and aura or two but if I had to decide between the two I'd rather cross just not be encourage as it is. There, that is the best I can describe my thoughts on the state of cross. I'm opposed to it, yet I'm not adamantly against it as I don't feel it is imbalanced enough to ruins current gameplay. It's certainly something to keep an eye on though.
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  HighestIncome on Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:40 pm

I must admit that I didn't play legion for a while, but i definitely know and remember cross builds from back then, a year+ ago...

For me it seems imbalanced and even new players are able to pull it off nicely... And i can imagine that legion nowdays trned into almost only 2x2 crossbuilds from both sides...

The most simple solution to deal with it would be adding a mode which allows cross-builds, which is indeed very simple to do (i mean with codes ect.).

Another thing that came to my mind is some formula for 'armor bonus increase for mid area' if players decide do do cross... For example +1 every 5 levels or something, idc, but i guess that numbers are relatively easy to put in. (Still it remains the same armor bonus value to the single players).



@Nortan Yo didn't see ya for a while Smile

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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NoHeal4u on Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:01 pm

There is "no cross" command already if im not mistaken,(it was suggested earlier) but IMO it  serves to protect you in pubs against BAD crosses, which were blooming like mushrooms after after removal of anti stuck exploit! Now their numbers are in decline. So far Ive maybe seen 4-6 people who can pull off a cross build which is actually decent, rest of them usually end up with worse incomes and values than if they were both playing solo.

....................................................................................................................................................................................

ATM cross represents a way to play actively with your friend, it involves a lot of planing and plain talk, which is fun for itself for entire duration of the game. Fresh blood.  Solo lane play, while being the core play style is in the end just SOLO play,rarely more demanding than playing -debug against yourself. The biggest coop thing you can pull of is "lets send on XX level" or "lets trade auras", much different than in other  WC3 maps. I can eat or watch TV while playing (which is great  also Cool ).

Nevertheless, the biggest advantage of a cross is the fact that if your team played double cross,you can all pull off 7/16 around (or before, if you had good units) arena and leak 6-8 turtles  maximum!

But there are disadvantages, ranged/fast levels and hard send on those can ruin your  cross. Level 10 can wreck havoc with aggro. You cant tackle levels 6,11 and 15 undervalued like in solo play. Unit aggro is unpredictable and from time to time you can leak whole side because one runner and early aggro who pulled both sides. Units sometimes scatter and get stuck, which also leads to 50%-100% leak. There were situations where melee units just run in the middle between the two sides, probably getting aggro from both, but if that melee is your tank, you will suffer.. List goes on..  ATM with all those disadvantages and unreliability , more bonus armor in the middle would make crossing too risky and unplayable.
We will see how it goes in new beta, so far its twice harder to cross good in B11 than it is  in B8.


P.S

Kongk I'm glad you like the egg idea.  I presume this model could represent something which hatched from our beloved monster egg Very Happy
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  Kongk on Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:43 am

Yea.. Some people are in favour of crossbuilding and some people are against.. I totally agree that it isn't balanced at all, but i understand that it can be a fun supplement to the game Smile

There already is a -nc (No Cross) mode.. It was added somewhere after b8, and it is a part of current b11 version and will be part of all later versions.. Wink

(But we won't spend time on balancing it.. If people think it is too imbalanced they can add -nc to the game mode)

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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  Nortan on Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:30 am

NoHeal4u wrote:So far Ive maybe seen 4-6 people who can pull off a cross build which is actually decent, rest of them usually end up with worse incomes and values than if they were both playing solo.

You need to play with better players then. If they 'usually' fail at cross they probably can't even do well at solo play.

NoHeal4u wrote:ATM cross represents a way to play actively with your friend, it involves a lot of planing and plain talk, which is fun for itself for entire duration of the game.

It's fine if people want to play together and midbuild it's really not as bad as cross. Cross is not the same thing and it is definitely not balanced. As far as planning goes it's almost entirely one player that handles the building while the other waits on income and the only planning necessary is for deciding if there is enough delay. However, the small amount of communication that occurs between cross builders isn't significant enough to make me believe that friends are drawn to it for that purpose and it's not a good reason to ignore the imbalance either way. If there was a more clear drawback to cross I wouldn't be against it as I am, but I can clearly see that it's not balanced as it is.

NoHeal4u wrote:Nevertheless, the biggest advantage of a cross is the fact that if your team played double cross,you can all pull off 7/16 around (or before, if you had good units) arena and leak 6-8 turtles maximum!


Well yes cross is not balanced and thus it is a bit easier to max incomes. It's not that difficult to get to 7/16 by lvl 20 as solo play, cross just has it easier. As far as lvl 20 goes if you team double crosses you will probably leak 6 turtles into the middle but should be able to kill and weaken enough that the king is not in danger. Boss levels are not a huge threat to cross builders unless they are completely unprepared.

NoHeal4u wrote:But there are disadvantages, ranged/fast levels and hard send on those can ruin your cross. Level 10 can wreck havoc with aggro. You cant tackle levels 6,11 and 15 undervalued like in solo play. Unit aggro is unpredictable and from time to time you can leak whole side because one runner and early aggro who pulled both sides. Units sometimes scatter and get stuck, which also leads to 50%-100% leak. There were situations where melee units just run in the middle between the two sides, probably getting aggro from both, but if that melee is your tank, you will suffer.. List goes on.. ATM with all those disadvantages and unreliability , more bonus armor in the middle would make crossing too risky and unplayable.
We will see how it goes in new beta, so far its twice harder to cross good in B11 than it is in B8.

Just about everything you stated right here makes me really doubt you appreciate the current issue with cross building or that you play with experienced players. Levels 6, 11, and 15 can't be undervalued in cross? Scatter and get stuck? Melee running from side to side? Are you not using any delay tactics? Is the unit placement and selection that bad that you can't create any delay or spacing? I just can't take you seriously and imo, from my experience, there isn't any real defense for cross. It's simply too strong, too effective, and not balanced. Honestly, I've been playing less with my clan members and I've been a bit discouraged to playing legion lately cause they cross build almost every game and even pubs have gotten into the cross build a bit. My clan members definitely know how to use and abuse cross building properly and while it's difficult to play against it sort of just makes the entire game not as interesting for me. Seeing people cross gives me the same feeling I had in 3.41 when I found out there was a mercenary on the only team or seeing my own team pick it on the rare occasions the game wasn't forced into -hp prophet or hybrid, which was almost every game cause no one wanted to deal with mercs/paladins builders (well and all prophet/hybrid is fun obviously).
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NoHeal4u on Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:30 am

Before reading, consider the fact, English isn't my native language, sometimes my writing isn't accurate as it could be, thus comes misunderstanding.

Middle building is out of question it is inferior strategy and probably obsolete.

The usual cross tactic you've presumed that we use is just weaker IMO, thus we are playing a bit different version which can suffer in mentioned situations described in  my previous post. I'm writing this from my pure empirical experience.

BOTH players are building! Strategy revolves around "critical fighting mass" capable of dispatching wave fast without many loses on one side and sufficient blocking mass on the other. Player with better DPS and income starts overbuilding after level 5(or around, don't take every word too literal, deviation is possible everywhere),  while the other player is letting go 30-50% of his creeps to feed the other one. Gainer(overbuilder) must be the player with better income(so far) and stronger units, this way both players will easily have income larger than 100 around the arena. Lumber upgrades are around 5/2+6/2 on lvl 5, 5/2+6/3 before lvl 7, 7/3+7/6  lvl 10, 7/6+7/7 after arena. If gainer has extremely good units, numbers can go into his favor, he can even get more lumber upgrades than leaker before level 10 (7/6+7/4 for example, after arena it can even go around 7/8+7/6 in perfect case) .

Honestly, optimal situation before lvl 11 would be~7/6+7/7,100++ income both, 1k+2.1k value and ability to send 2++ balistas on level 12. They both build for level 12.

Later on they both rush income as fast as possible. Gainer, one whos catching leaks from the other side can in fact rush income even faster than the one whos leaking but good coordination is needed, and leaker must add units to his blocking force when its needed, usually for levels 12,14,16. In perfect case they can both have 7/16 finished around level 18. Gainers side is pumped with value for level 20 by both players, so the bosses are dispatched fast while block on the other side is still holding. Gainers force always kills 3 turtles on his side, and in perfect scenario they will kill all 6. After this, you balance sides, you need to have equally balanced sides before end game, you don't want to lose more units than optimal on lvl 31.

I will agree with you, when pulled out correctly this is extremely powerful and much stronger(safer) than any 2 solo builds can ever be , but! It has its own disadvantages. Cross can fail harder than any solo build.

Majority of our games are played on UC bot and similar public bots. Players are as good as they can be in such circumstances. But, the better they are, harder they fall Very Happy

This was maybe a bit off topic, but i just wanted to reply, concise as possible.  lol!
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  HighestIncome on Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:46 am

noheal4u wrote: In perfect case they can both have 7/16 finished around level 18.


Well I didn't know this?

If that is a perfect case, what is average case then?

I remember that with solo build i went to 7/16 on lvl 17-18 in most of the games with no problems and considering that cross should have advantage compared to solo builds, that's not that impressive at all?

And btw, 100 income on 1st arena is..."okayish", but again considering cross, i would say that everything under 130-150 (on average including both players)
is not that good...

Regards, HI
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NoHeal4u on Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:03 pm

We had easily 160+140 on start of the first arena  few days ago. Managed to pull 7/16 on 15th in that same game. I was describing concept and you are flash lightning one mistaken word, numbers aren't important or to be taken literally it is all  ~  .

With hyb or average proph pulls you'll fit into described range most of the time.

I can pull out 7/16 solo in 9/10 games before level 17, hell of it, my 50 year old mother does it in majority of games she plays, only question is, will you win? Cross is safer for the team when it comes wining. Which is good, although Nortan doesn't like it Very Happy


Last edited by NoHeal4u on Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  HighestIncome on Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:15 pm

And yeah, almost forgot, about egg upgrade, not the best idea in the World. Reasons:

1) As Marine builder has recently buffed Trident and Sea Giant, that is more than enough for midgame tanking.
2) Considering it's tier 2, even if you wanted it to tank it would have been extremely expensive. For example take a look at Pyro (which upgraded is most expensive tier 2 if im not mistaken?) which is useless 12+.
3) "Logical progress" should not be connected to how units look like, at all. Or surely it shouldn't be more important than their actuall "point". So point of a tier 2 is to make dps or tank in early game, or both, but is to be expected to become more useless as midgame levels are getting higher.
4) It is not good even to make 'stronger' early game tank, since egg is perfect 1-9 and i feel like it would be waste of gold to get stronger version of it, since you don't need it. 50 gold for 280FHP (if im not mistaken?) and withdraw is the best buy.
5) Remember, legion is balanced considering RACES, you can't just balance single tower without taking a look at ALL towers of race where specific tower belongs.

Regards, HI
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NoHeal4u on Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:21 pm

Ok, its balanced by the races. But i will ask you one thing. Who is playing -ap or -sd? Is there a closed league? Private games? Clan games? Hosting bot? Market is demanding ph/hp.
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  HighestIncome on Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:27 pm

Nobody. That is very true, sir, and i wanted to mention it but im kinda short with time.

Anyways, if you try to balance legion tower by tower, you ruin the original idea of the game, because it's ok for some race to have 'fail' tier 2 and 'little bit op' tier 3 for example. And that actually is the thing atm. Your question is close to "why is water colorless", it is like it is. Same with legion and balance, legion is and will be balanced only considering races, exept in some extreme and rare cases. That's basic legion idea and if you do differently, we are talking about other map, not legion.

Sorry but i couldn't give you better answer Smile

Regards, HI
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NoHeal4u on Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:34 pm

Well i understand. Fact is, if all towers were good, game wouldn't be interesting, no one would play it. Diversity is nice.

I hope this discussion was constructive, i had fun, and forum felt alive, even if it is 3.30 AM Smile

Regards.
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  Nortan on Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:33 pm

HighestIncome wrote:Nobody. That is very true, sir, and i wanted to mention it but im kinda short with time.

Anyways, if you try to balance legion tower by tower, you ruin the original idea of the game, because it's ok for some race to have 'fail' tier 2 and 'little bit op' tier 3 for example. And that actually is the thing atm. Your question is close to "why is water colorless", it is like it is. Same with legion and balance, legion is and will be balanced only considering races, exept in some extreme and rare cases. That's basic legion idea and if you do differently, we are talking about other map, not legion.

Sorry but i couldn't give you better answer Smile

Regards, HI

IMO there is a difference between stuff being 'balanced' and stuff being bad or mediocre to the point that that experienced players constantly overlook or even avoid them completely.

As far as "legion is and will be balanced only considering races" I'd say a lot of the recent buffs that have been coming out with each new beta disagree with this idea.
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  HighestIncome on Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:41 pm

Nortan wrote:
IMO there is a difference between stuff being 'balanced' and stuff being bad or mediocre to the point that that experienced players constantly overlook or even avoid them completely.

Well I didn't say that 'balanced' and 'being bad' are the same thing, I just gave simple example to try to explain to noheal4u why is legion balanced considering races, not solo towers.

Nortan wrote:
As far as "legion is and will be balanced only considering races" I'd say a lot of the recent buffs that have been coming out with each new beta disagree with this idea.

Well can you give me an example for that? There are maybe very little number of cases, but generally fact about balancing stays...

Regards, HI
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  Kongk on Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:44 pm

Yup, indeed a nice and constructive discussion guys Wink

HighestIncome is right that race-balance is very important to consider before changing a single unit.. Balancing Legion TD has to be done from single race perspective, and actually without -cb.. The problem is that (as i think i have mentioned earlier) Legion TD never was adjusted to fit x3 gamestyle (yet).. That means that more than half the towers of each race becomes useless somewere in midgame.. Thats why -cb is NEEDED, and I also think that's the reason why most games are played with -pH mode.. It simply fit x3 better than normal races.. Nervertheless, race balance has to be a key factor (or the most important factor) when doing balance on units, since that's how legion is..    

(I won't go much more into details right now, but there is plenty of things that hasn't been mentioned that also plays a role..)

That being said, Nortan is right that there is a difference between balancing a race by changing some units and changing a unit because it is super useless.. This is/was also one of the main problems in mega.. You have/had a bunch of super-overpowered units and then alot of useless units.. NO units should be absolutely useless, but some units have to "bad" or worse than average, otherwise it wouldn't really be a game (if it didn't matter which units you built)..

I guess most of the super-overpowered units have been nerfed to a somewhat "better than average" level.. Some new units appeared though; meat wagon, thunderbirds etc., but that will be taken care of... Alot of useless units have also been buffed to play "some" role.. Some ended on average level and some just below average.. There are still some totally useless units that need to be taken care of though (egg upgrade for instance)..

I wish i could go much more into detail right now, since this topic is super important, but i simply dont have the time.. Bottom line is that super-overpowerd units have to be found and nerfed (guess most of it has been done here) and super useless towers have to be found and taken care of.. This has to be done without messing substantially with general race balance.. I guess race balance is somewhat acceptable right now, but i'm sure there are some minor things that can be done to make it better..

You guys are, of course, most welcome to comment on what you still think needs handleling when it comes to the things mentioned above (based on b11 version)..  

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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NERV on Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:32 pm

HighestIncome wrote:
Nortan wrote:
As far as "legion is and will be balanced only considering races" I'd say a lot of the recent buffs that have been coming out with each new beta disagree with this idea.

Well can you give me an example for that? There are maybe very little number of cases, but generally fact about balancing stays...

Nortan is right, I also feel like many unit changes made from b5 from b11 were based on prophet/hybrid play. Not only the buffs, but some of the nerfs as well. I believe everything is thoughtfully described in my posts, a few pages ago.

This being said, Mega play style is very different than other Legion versions, -cb plays a much more crucial role (although I don't like it at all), plus, is the only legion version with prophet, and pretty much everyone plays prophet nowadays. It is also the only Legion version so far with so many different play styles (mids, cross-mids, save-wood tactics, heals and there were heroes and mercenary at some point too), I believe all contributed to the diversity of play styles, unfortunately, unlike any other Legion, regular game play (no -cb) with regular income progression (-ns) does not seem to please most of the players (be them old players or new ones).

So, although I defended race-orientated balances so far, I've come to realize that maybe it not the best approach for Legion Mega. And I also think, because of that, I don't see any new races coming in the future (for mega). If you come to think, adding 12~14 new units, and to balance them, make them look convincing... just so in the end only 1 or 2 will be used regularly, it is really kinda of a let down, especially for the people who spend so much time brainstorming/balancing. Also, consider there's just 3 people working on 3 different Legion versions.

I haven't really play beta11 (not enough as mcuh as I played any other version), mostly due to lack of interest in Legion Mega these days (mostly because of prophet), and I rather play 3.41 (I don't like the 16th lumber upgrade at all too), *BUT* I would like to suggest a complete change in race style for mega: scrape all races, and make it only prophet/hybrid.  rabbit  Haha, that'd be cool I guess, this way new units would be added without so much effort, and some old ones could be better balanced.

best regards
NERV.
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NoHeal4u on Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:46 am

Those are some fine arguments from Nortan and Nerv.

If you don't want to mess around with legacy and original map idea, you can just Fork two versions.

First forked version with only prophet and hybrid, discard all other builders. It will make it much easier to balance and lessen the pressure from head.

Second fork version without proph and hyb, only races, would be balanced and almost in perfect state even now for those who like -sd,-ap,-rd etc.
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  HighestIncome on Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:50 am

Well guys I won't say that things you are saying are not making sense or that they are pointless, but unfortunately i think we reached a point of "force" where actual decisions will be made by people that have power over the Legion's future. What I am trying to say is that Legion Mega won't be changed considering players, modes, bots, "who hosts what", "who plays what". It would be the same as you would ask: Let's make special Legion Mega version for [ENT] bot where saving is main part of the game. Well nobody is going to do that, and we already had conversation with [ENT] players which was more-less like: "You will play -ns mode or you will stay on 3.41". And they stayed, because new Legion is based on income/balanced_builds, not lumber save.

I'm predicting similar thing to happen with this balance discussion, because you just can't abandon original idea. That would be disrespectful to the legion ancients who gave map to the new and enthusiastic mapmakers such as Saucer and KongK. If they do abandon original idea, that's not the same map for me anymore. Since I was involved in creating and discussing about huge number of changes from B5 to present, I must say that I (we) never (or rarely) balanced single tower without taking a look at the race. I must admit that i lately lost a track when is what added and there's possibly something I've missed, but majority is there, balance considering races.

So now what with Pro and Hyb? Well those two races are actually impossible to balance, because if you balanced it, all towers are the same with different models Smile It's just a reality, it's how it is.

So guys, I won't say that situation is simple/easy, but in the end decisions will be made and unfortunately, i don't think everyone will be happy.
In the end, of course, all ideas will be appreciated and are welcome, so thank you everyone contributing Smile
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NERV on Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:54 am

I don't think these Fork idea would be good, for reason already explain by Kongk, I believe. It would essentially double the amount of work, and as I said before, consider there's only 3 people directly working (Kongk, Saucer and Von Oberstain) on 3 different legion version: Mega, Revo and Pro. Revo and Pro uses the same base map, but one has x3 creeps and the other one x1, respectively.

I don't think it would be that bad if you guys have all races scraped from Mega 3.5, and turn it into a pure prophet/hybrid based map. Mega 3.41 was the last playable Mega version made by HuanAk, the other earlier 3.5 betas are just too imba, mainly because of Dark Ranger hero (possible 7/9 before arena without any leaks), besides all the nerfs made on units in these very first beta maps are just too few, not changing the map as a whole.

Considering the map makers have changed, I would expect 3.5 to be a completely different map, and so far I dislike the 16th lumber upgrade idea, mainly because prophet/hybrid builds are now EVEN MORE stronger than regular races, which is exactly the opposite idea HuanAk had for 3.5 (see heroes, and if wasn't for -ns, regular races would be obsolete in 3.5). So, I guess it would be acceptable if regular races were removed. It is big change, but it is as big as a change in the economy system.

Removing the races from the map would also remove -ap, -sd and -ar primary modes, but I guess it would only affect a minority of the players. It would also make it simpler to add a tutorial or something alike for Mega. I already have ideas of what a tutorial of only prophet/hybrid should be and I guess it would be very easy to implement something like that.

Still on tutorial subject: I think it should be something that players can make use of during the match itself, so a newbie would not be forced to quit a game, just because he doesn't understand the map. I also think there should be a tutorial for single player, this one being more extensive.
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NERV on Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:11 am

HighestIncome wrote:That would be disrespectful to the legion ancients who gave map to the new and enthusiastic mapmakers such as Saucer and KongK.

Haha  Laughing , I'm sorry, but I couldn't hold myself to make a new post just to reply to this.
Saucer and Von Oberstain are not new map makers, they were here long before I got here, and I got here long before you got here. You were not here when HuanAk was working in Legion Mega, so you don't know anything about Ancient times of Legion Mega at all (or Ancient Legion, for that matter). And you also have no idea what HuanAk wanted 3.5 to be, or what he wanted for Mega at all.

Just for the record, Kongk is also an excellent map maker, and he works very hard for Legion sake, not only for legion Mega, but other versions too.
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  HighestIncome on Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:22 am

I guess that there is no connection between  "when you got here" and "what you know"?

Why would you think that I don't know that? Smile


*Edit: When i said new, i thought on Mega. And that is true, if not neccesserly "new", they are surely the most new (or newest, im not sure about the word).
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Re: Legion TD Mega 3.5 (Beta 13), General Discussion and Feedback.

Post  NERV on Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:32 am

HighestIncome wrote:I guess that there is no connection between  "when got here" and "what you know"?

Why would you think that I don't know that? Smile

Because you don't know what HuanAk had in mind for Mega, yet you talk about "if map makers abandon original map idea", when there are no more heroes in the current beta and the economy has obviously changed.

Because you're just a prophet/hybrid player, and most, if not all, of your suggestions were based on prophet gameplay, riding against what HuanAk wanted (he wanted regular races to be as strong as prophet).

Because you say things which have absolute no basis whatsoever. Saucer "new and enthusiast map maker"?  He works with legion long before you even knew about this map.

This conversation ends here.
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