Changelog 2.x continued

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  eGze on Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:38 pm

Problem is the lag on X2, X3. To many units, skills etc. Any ideas how to solve it? I compressing the skills as I can but mostly it is a large number of units on map.

Maybe on X2,X3 number of units will be the same as the X1 but two, three times stronger?
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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:08 pm

But the problem is that 2 bosses 3000hp are much worse than 1 - 6000hp, cause when he loses 3000hp, nothing happens to him and in 1 option - they lose half of their power, also armor on our units is less effective (1 strong attack rather than 2 weak). I think that u will need to add more than x1 units but much stronger and make two modes: normal, insane. Normal - standard, insane - more cash, maybe a BIT bigger bounty (maybe lumber-spawn should change too?) and (a few more units?) also stronger. U might somewhen change the whole army which is attacking on insane mode as it is in Skibi's Castle, but it needs much time and ur effort, what i can do is write statistics of units for u, same with towers.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  Red on Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:29 am

Problem is the lag on X2, X3. To many units, skills etc. Any ideas how to solve it? I compressing the skills as I can but mostly it is a large number of units on map.

Maybe on X2,X3 number of units will be the same as the X1 but two, three times stronger?

Good idea! It is solution to problem with some ability, that make first levels too easy for some races (goblin's fire machine, zeus, naga's fangorth, dvarfe's teame with splash.

In additional u may add to each wave a one unit of wave of next level or next level + 2. x2 - with crabs go scorpions. x3 - with crabs go pigs.


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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  eGze on Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:24 am

eGze wrote:Maybe on X2,X3 number of units will be the same as the X1 but two, three times stronger?

I checked this and Total failure... Bad idea, but with boss rounds is all ok.
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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  PanicX on Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:26 pm

Perhaps i have a idea to reduce laggs.
You could implement a command,which will disappear the imagination of the spells and something like this.
You can try this in shopping maul 6 beta b,if u be the host,you are able to type in "-nosfx"

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  guy4 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:19 pm

Okay so the problem is that there is lag during the later rounds caused by too many buildings and too many creeps (mainly in 3 * waves of creeps). So are you looking to fix the lag from 25 onwards, or only the new levels 32-40?

I would suggest only 31-40 (as the lag from 25-31 is really bad but not unbearable) and reworking lvl 25-31 will take lots of time. Your suggestion of less creeps makes the most sense to reduce lag especially if its combined with either a tier 7 unit (as per procs suggestion) or being able to upgrade the tier 1-6 units (or even just tier 5-6 as its less effort and balancing) more then once (as per proc suggestion) or both. The reason why I say this, is that it will reduce the number of buildings and hence the lag (as tier 7 will be quite a lot more expensive, so people will build less buildings if they use tier7 which they will) and lessen the effect of the buildings not having vision of the creeps (and not fighting). The other plus side to tier 7 and upgrading tier 5-6, is that it'll make it more fair then to have only 1 strong wave start from level 32-40. Because your buildings will be bigger and stronger.

So tying up my thoughts the following 3 things can be done to reduce lag in levels 31-40 in 2 * and 3 * mode
- make only 1 set of creeps (but dont times their stats by 2 times and 3 times) i.e. if its 3 * mode and the level 32 creep has 3000hp and 200dps then make the creeps have 3000hp*2.2 = 6600hp and 200dps*2.2 = 440dps but only 1 set of creeps (kinda like lvl 14 and lvl 28 where less creeps are spawned but they much stronger)
- make the tier 7 buildings as per PROC's suggestion - less buildings = less lag
- make extra upgrade for tier 5-6 = less buildings = less lag

I definitely think less units is the way to go, just gotta be careful with the new spells for tier 7 and the upgrades for tier 5-6 that they wont cause lag like the tidal wave spell did for a while in Lisks versions of legion td (1.50).

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:00 pm

Now I can say that WE are working on it, I have already prepared additional upgardes for all units (not only tier 5-6) to 3 races (believe me, would be cool, 20-25 towers in 39lvl is very possible). We will rather not make Tier 7. What's more I think that x3 and x2 have to disappear, my idea is to make compelatelly new Insane mode, the only problem now is to persuade egze that this idea is awesome Very Happy. x1 will stay the same as egze told me.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  Red on Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:00 pm

Maybe on X2,X3 number of units will be the same as the X1 but two, three times stronger?

I checked this and Total failure... Bad idea, but with boss rounds is all ok.

Why? You boost all mobs in 2.7. It's hard to change quantity and quality together depending om mod?

So tying up my thoughts the following 3 things can be done to reduce lag in levels 31-40 in 2 * and 3 * mode
- make only 1 set of creeps (but dont times their stats by 2 times and 3 times) i.e. if its 3 * mode and the level 32 creep has 3000hp and 200dps then make the creeps have 3000hp*2.2 = 6600hp and 200dps*2.2 = 440dps but only 1 set of creeps (kinda like lvl 14 and lvl 28 where less creeps are spawned but they much stronger)
- make the tier 7 buildings as per PROC's suggestion - less buildings = less lag
- make extra upgrade for tier 5-6 = less buildings = less lag

Good idea. But big upgrades have been available from 27 or 30 level. And food cap - 50 or less.

And some my ideas.

In one fake version I see no peasant's. Main castle has the ability to generate lumber. The period of time = walking of peasant from castle to tree and back. One upgrade decrease period of time. Other upgrade increase number of lumber.
Absence of peasants = lesser lags = lesser food cap.



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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:52 pm

Hey, thats maybe not bad idea though (removing workers)! But climate changes ;/ I guess incoming will also change much thats what we will consider soon, now we are talking about upgrades to existing units. Anyway worker - 1 food was very good, that should never be removed.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  Red on Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:24 am

Hey, thats maybe not bad idea though (removing workers)! But climate changes ;/ I guess incoming will also change much thats what we will consider soon, now we are talking about upgrades to existing units. Anyway worker - 1 food was very good, that should never be removed.
upgrade, that decrease period of adding lumber, may consume food too. Like invisible worker.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:15 am

I know I know, maybe it's not bad idea, let egze read it. But firstly we must consider all other ideas I brought up. I will take some time. be patient.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:54 am

egze already did something better based on this suggestion, thx dude for this idea u took participation in LegionTD developing Very Happy

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  eGze on Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:06 am

Red wrote:In one fake version I see no peasant's. Main castle has the ability to generate lumber. The period of time = walking of peasant from castle to tree and back. One upgrade decrease period of time. Other upgrade increase number of lumber.
Absence of peasants = lesser lags = lesser food cap.

Good idea!

I removed workers from castle. On start you get 1 Whisp who gather lumber. All works like with peasants. If you buy "Whisp Training" (old ->train Worker) unit gather lumber faster. Max speed is 30 lumber per 4 seconds (without lumber training). It's something like 30 peasants.

Test.
1 Whisp with 24 "whisp training" (without lumber training)
1800 lumber in 5 min
~6 lumber per second


24 peasants (without lumber training)
~1750 lumber in 5 min
~5,83 lumber per second

I think that all is OK.

PS 1 peasant is available to build farms.
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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  Red on Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:54 pm

PS 1 peasant is available to build farms.
It's for tradition only? ) Player need only one farm, and in future upgrade this farm. Maybe give him this farm on start?

egze already did something better based on this suggestion, thx dude for this idea u took participation in LegionTD developing
Thank you. I like this map, and think, that egze gives it the second breath.

And one idea, but I don't know, realizable it for Legion td or no. On x2 player sent double sommons. On x3 triple sommons. For example, pay 150 and appears 3 furblolgs, that run to one or two opponents. In this case quantity of standard mobs may decrease. P.S.1: u may make detached mod for this. P.S.2: this mod must be inseparable from -ns mod (from 1.6).

Good luck in map-creating!

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  Red on Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:57 pm

Test.
1 Whisp with 24 "whisp training" (without lumber training)
1800 lumber in 5 min
~6 lumber per second


24 peasants (without lumber training)
~1750 lumber in 5 min
~5,83 lumber per second

I think that all is OK.
Don't forget, that peasants with lumberjack training gather lumber longer.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  guy4 on Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:22 pm

@ Red, awesome suggestion on the worker thing (so glad EGZE is implementing it). You need about 2 fully upgraded farms and 1 half upgraded farm to reach thye 200 food limit. So would need to be like EGZE suggested (and its only 1 peasant so no problem). I think the summons would be overpowered if 2 or 3 were sent instead of one even though I see your point (as 2 or 3 times the amount of building are built so why not balance and have 2 or 3 times summons).

The reason I say that it would be overpowered is that say 1 guy summoned a kracken and 1 ghoul and 2 archer.
It could happen that one guy on the other team gets 3 krackens (in 3 times mode). Now amplify this. Say you are trying to end on level 30. So you save 9000 lumber (from level 20 to 21 onwards) and the other team members summon some stuff. if its 3 * then its like sending 27000 lumber. Now one player might get like 14000 lumber worth making it impossible to defend it. Even 9000 lumber split 3 or 4 ways is tough on level 30 (besides the other team members sending)

I think EGZE estimations were based on letting it run for 5 mins with 24 workers and approx 1750 lumber was gathered (correct me if i am wrong). Thats the only real way of getting an accurate picture. Becasue of collisons and workers walking diferent distances etc, it makes it insanely complex to calculate it accurately.

@PROC, awesome stuff, love your ideas man you so gifted at thinking of good ideas quickly. PS: the only reason I said upgrade only tier 5-6 is because from level 32 you will probably only want to upgrade your best tiers (and thats when you spending the most cash because you got so much income). But if you guys can handle making upgrades for all tiers, that will be AWESOME! Smile. PPS: Can you make it so that guys can only upgrade tier 6 (or tier 5 and 6 or something like that) after level 31. Kinda like what EGZE did with only being able to build tier 6 on level 6.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  guy4 on Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:31 pm

Oh yeah last thing @RED. The Goblin Fire machine is overpowered in the first few levels but quickly loses its power as the game progresses and here's why.

1 goblin fire machine by itself early game is overpowered because:
- There are no other towers to get in its way to stop the (very low range immolation). Later on most units run in the way negating the small range immolation.
- it has a high attspd so it doesnt "waste" dmg (like pyro it pawns early too). i.e. if you had a tower doing 100 dmg every second every time it killed a level 1 unit it would "waste" a lot of dmg but if it did 50 dmg every 0.5 secs it would kill level 1 creeps twice as fast.
- immollation pawns early levels quickly as 10 dps is a lot early. In later levels 10 dps just tickles the creeps.
- immolation doesnt work vs range creeps (immolation range to small), so you cant just spam huge workers knowing that 1 fire machine can pawn lvl 1, 2 ,3 and 5 (on 3* creeps), because level 4 is a bitch and you need to spend quite a bit to pass it as goblin.

Statswise firemachine has been nerfed into oblivion so I dont think it should be nerfed any more, I think its quite balanced now.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  Red on Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:31 pm

Triple sommons have bein divided between all players. One craken to each.

Without -ns idea, that I suggest is stupid. Mod with triple and double sommons must include -ns.

Fire machine gives opportunity to get 5 peasants and lumb. upgrade to 3 level and than than build other towers. I think it's too cool for goblins.
Also fangtooth is too strong for x3.
Cheap way to get 5 workers and upgrade till 5 level. If I use it - never loose.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:38 am

Believe me Red, things are changing. egze is now considering my suggestion about Insane mode (already 20 waves are ready on paper), Goblin Machine is kinda useless in it.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  guy4 on Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:16 pm

5 workers and lumber up is too much for level 4. Fire machines are really bad against level 4 because the thing that makes fire machines imba ealry game is the immolation. The dps per gold and hp per gold is really bad for fire machines.
You will defintely leak 4 or it will be highly risky. The most I do is 4 workers by 4 for a safe level 4 and like I said fire machine is imba early game but late game its weak due to its bad stats (i.e. brawler much ncer from level 8 onwards)

The insane mode sounds awesome PROC, you and EGZE are so fast and come up with such nce ideas cant wait for it!

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:43 pm

guy4 unfortunatelly I am pretty sure it will not introduce in next version. We are thinking what more we can add to this one. Following ver will balance things like Slave Trade (wave unit summoning shop) Wink . Insane mode + each tower additional upgrade desire much time. Next things will be: workers upgrades (lag reduction) and probably whole game balance will be did by me if egze lend me his map ;P. But firstly we need to add new race to balance it then too and follow some of ur awesome ideas.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  guy4 on Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:28 am

makes perfect sense. Better to get the next version out sooner then delay it with those awesome changes coz the awesome changes can be done in the version after the next one.

Is there anyways EGZE can put the new race units and stats (and spells) in the changelog so we can see whats coming. I am so excited about the new race, sounds cool.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  PROcuratorDotA on Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:22 am

We have next ideas about races (I mean I have Razz idk what about egze). Even I don't know what's coming in Blood Orc race ;P Idk, probably he will not put it in changelog just you will check it out urself in a right time.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  PanicX on Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:57 pm

hey,are there any news?

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

Post  Red on Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:26 pm

So many ideas... so long process of preparing new version...
egzee, proc, maybe you quickly make 2.8 without -gg and including a little changes like nerfing maverick and -ns.
Other massive changes - go in 3.0.
People thanks you.

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Re: Changelog 2.x continued

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